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Please post your response by Friday, November 8, at midnight. Then respond to one of your colleagues by Sunday, November 10 at midnight.
Question
The main characters in this film are primarily suffering from the social enforcement of norms. What that means is that the majority in a society has certain behaviors and attitudes it considers important, and does its best to make sure that people uphold those attitudes and behaviors by imposing social costs on the people who don’t uphold them.
By and large, our society no longer sympathizes with the norms they were upholding in the film (norms against interracial relationships and same sex relationships), and so we're also unsympathetic with their social enforcement.
But what about norms that we do think are important? Say we witnessed someone berating her girlfriend in a way that humiliated her. We probably wouldn't want that to be illegal, but we probably also want to discourage it. We would probably behave toward that couple (with the verbally abusive girlfriend) much like the people in Hartford behaved toward Raymond and Cathy.
So, is the problem just that the norms were wrong in the 1950s? Or is there a problem with making other people’s behavior and attitudes our business at all? If you think that the social enforcement of norms is sometimes reasonable, what do you think is the difference between the examples from the movie and the example I gave (with the berating girlfriend)?
What is a Good Answer?
A good answer will reflect carefully on the various aspects of each question, and will tie an understanding of those aspects into the overall answer. A good answer will also elaborate on reasons for your answers, and explain your thinking in detail. I would expect a good answer to take up at least 3/4 of a double-spaced page in the word processing program before you copy and paste it.
A good response to your colleague will drive the conversation forward in some way. You might raise a question for your colleague, based on what she said in her comment; you might use his comment as a jumping-off spot to think about an issue raised in more depth; you might challenge some assumptions or argue against the logic of her reasons. Naturally, you'll do all of this politely and respectfully. Responses that merely agree with the comment won't be counted toward your grade.
Duy M.
ReplyDeleteThe norms in the 1950s against interracial relationship and same sec relationships were indeed wrong. There is definitely a problem with making other people’s behaviors and attitudes our business. However, I do think that the social enforcement of norms is sometimes reasonable, I do think the difference between the examples from the movie and the example with the berating girlfriend is that norm against interracial relationships overturn in the future because society decided to ignore that African American are also people with the same equal right and dignity as White people. Race does not make a person less valuable. Same sex relationship was also overturned very recently because society started to accept facts that gay people also have dignity, their own will and reasons and we as a whole must respect that. In the movie, norms against interracial relationship was most likely based on slavery history and how people did not try to understand how closed minded they were to these major issue in their society. Majority of people in Hartford especially middle upper class White people lived their lives based on the society norms without giving it second thought. This type of norm might have been passing down from generation to generation in this town. They did not consider African American to be equal as them in social status. There is still an invisible barrier that people avoid speaking of or crossing over. Same sex relationships were treated as a disease that people in the movie feel ashamed discussing with their friends and family. It was a horrible illness that they should fix instead of trying to analyze its nature and accepting it. People were scared of difference and changes. In the example of berating girlfriend, the norm acts as a good rule that society should acknowledge. It is clearly a violation of respecting others. The act of verbally abusive girlfriend is wrong and should always be wrong in the eyes of public. It does not mean that verbally abuse in private is acceptable. Either way, as a human being with dignity, we should always treat others with respect even with our loved ones. Nobody deserves to be abused or humiliated just because they are girlfriend/boyfriend/son/daughter/parents/grandparents etc. We have passed the stage of slavery.
David Davis
DeleteI agree entirely with everything you wrote about. " Majority of people in Hartford especially middle upper class White people lived their lives based on the society norms without giving it second thought." This line right here says a lot about the movie, and in reality. I know this film was based off the 1950's but still in modern day things are messed up in our society. "They did not consider African American to be equal as them in social status." Just as the last quote this means a lot in our society still today, not to sound like I'm going into other context but its really true lower class is almost forgot about in certain peoples' eyes.
Kanika Pho
ReplyDeleteIn the 1950s, the norms seemed unrighteous and wrong, but the fact that people were nosy and made other people’s behavior and attitudes their own business is more wrong and unrighteous the norm itself. Norms and the way people judge others are related because norms come from what the majority of people think is “normal”. The term “stereotype” can also be applied in this case. Stereotypes may not mean to be harmful, but the fact that people are not open-minded can cause issues. In the film, Cathy and Raymond suffered because of the people, who believed strongly in norms, due to the fact that they “strongly” believe in the norms. People choose to believe things they wish to believe, but not everyone would be willing to force their view on others. Those who stick nose into other’s business are wrong for trying to bring some sort of harm into the lives of those who do not want to follow the norms. People must be more open-minded. Thus, the problem in the 1950s was that people wished to force their views on those who do not want to follow the norm. In addition, it made it very hard for progress to eliminate these norms that keep people who love each other away from one another. Norms are just what the majority of people find as normal, but one shouldn’t force their views on others. I feel that norms are just views, but the way people use the norm as an excuse to force their views on others by resulting to violence or harassment is unreasonable. The fact that the film shows people harassing Raymond and his daughter because he was friendly with Cathy was wrong. The harassment was caused because people wanted to force the norm on Raymond and Cathy. In addition, they were trying to get into Raymond and Cathy’s business. In addition, the example about berating the girlfriend is wrong because of the action itself. However, people around should not have the right to judge unless things get out of hand between the couple. Thus, norms aren’t technically wrong or technically reasonable, but the way people apply the norm to their life varies and matters most. I think people sticking their noses into others’ business, without consent from the individual, is the main problem.
William F.
DeleteI agree with Kanika Pho, the main issues in the film and in the world are some people wish to force their beliefs on others. Everyone has the right to their own opinion because it is an inalienable right. However this does not give any person the right to forcefully apply their beliefs on someone else. If a person doesn’t like what they see then they can simple leave and walk away. Just like sometimes we may do things that others don’t like we still have to accept that we are all different and we won’t always share the exact same beliefs. Diversity is part of being human; it’s the way we tell the difference from each individual person. I also agree that a person should not get involved between a couples dispute unless it starts to get out of hand. This signs are really simple to tell, for example if one of the partners is crying, or getting physically abusive that is a big sign letting the public know to get involved.
William F.
ReplyDeleteI believe the norms in the 1950’s were wrong. We don’t have the right to judge what other people feel for who ever they feel. I believe people need to mind their own business when it comes to aspects of letting people love what they love. Live and let live is the first thing that comes to my mind when I was watching the film. However I do believe it is society’s duty to get involved when a person is berating their loved one. Being verbally abusive is just as bad as being physically abusive. If you are not happy with what a person does then you can leave, you don’t need to verbally abuse them. When you get together with a person it is because they make you feel good about yourself and that’s the way it should stay. There is a difference between what a person feels for another, whether they are same sex or different color, and a loved one berating another. The difference is that when people have the same beliefs as the ones shown in the film that is because they were raised to think that way. They are entitled to believe what they want but they should not try to tell people that they are doing wrong just because of their opinion’s. When a person criticizes someone they are doing it because they are either hurt or mad. The person instead should attempt to talk to their partner, instead of put the other down. When criticizing someone you never know how they can react, they may stay quiet and be provoked to do something to harm themselves or the person criticizing them. This is why a bystander should get involved because the risk of injure between the couple.
Stephanie A.
DeleteI can see your point regarding the fact that at the time it was a norm for many people. But with that said I also want to point to the fact that I strongly disagree with this point because even if it was a norm at the time, it still does not make it right. In your example you provided of people being enslaved by others, you stated that it was ok because of the norms of those days, really is not ok as an act. My point being that the act itself whether I’d be discrimination, homophobia, slavery, etc. is never ok, it is a wrong act that should not be viewed as ok, regardless of the norm or year it happened because some people did believe that the norm was not ok, which means that some people inherently knew it was wrong to judge others based on color of skin or sexual orientation. Again, I hear your context but still feel that it is never ok to discriminate or judge people based on color of skin or sexual orientation regardless of it being a norm of that time.
Ricky
ReplyDeleteI think that the 1950s norms were just norms and just views but what were the main problem was that people snooping around. How Mona was telling people about Cathy business where she shouldn’t be in the first place, and telling other people what she believe she saw. The people in Hartford were all getting into each other business. For example, some people that get into other people business usually gossip and make people look bad.
I think that norms are unreasonable sometimes. Since norms judge everyone on how they just because they are different. For example, Cathy and Raymond was just hanging out and everyone was looking at them weirdly and giving them attitude. Especially during Cathy and Frank vacation the little black kid went in and everyone thought the pool is now dirty and the parent wanted all their kids to leave the pool , also towards homosexual since Cathy's best friend thought that homosexual was bad since she didn’t even want to say the word. she even was shocked about frank being homosexual. Cathy friends was even gossiping about Mona uncle that he was different.
Vickie P.
DeleteRicky, I agree with you and yea it is true about how the norms would be in other peoples business just because they want to gossip about how other people are doing something they aren't supposed to be doing. Also that the fact spreading a gossip meaning it is destroying some else life and not care about it.
David L.
DeleteI also agree with you. Norms shouldn't try to make another person's reputation look bad because of the gossips that's been going around. They have no reason to start talking about others especially if the other person haven't done anything to them. They should just stay out of people's business and mind their owns.
agreed norms are supposed to be fundamental not disruptive to the livelihood. spreading rumors, especially without the all the information is very distinctive. To do that without cause is completely immoral.
DeleteVickie P.
ReplyDelete• I think that the importance about the norms is that they are just being racial and doesn’t really like people being in a same sex relationship because it’s wrong. In the 1950s the norms are wrong from judging people because of their skin color but there is a problem were people’s behavior and attitudes tends to be in others businesses at all. Well actually I don’t think the social enforcements of norms to be reasonable because they want to keep people apart and don’t want any interaction with the colored at all. The difference between the examples from the movie and the example you gave is that the movie is based on how two different people with different skin can’t hang out together. And the example you gave is about how relationship has verbal abuse to the partner and that there are things that can stop it by telling someone or just leaving the verbal abuse partner.
I agree with your thoughts. Now a days people are more accepting to interracial and same sex relationships all though there is still wondering stares. I believe the most important difference from now and them is that back them it would be common to see a black man get hurt because he is with a white woman, and now although some people find it weird its not common to relate interracial relationship with violence. And also I don’t think as many people fear going out in public with these types of relationships. Norms have adapted with us but some norms are still not good for anyone. Although there are some norms that can be helpful like when a couple is arguing. I think that the only social norms should be ones where no one ever gets hurt.
DeleteCynthia Ruiz
Prima F.
ReplyDeleteThe norms in the 1950’s were wrong. For a society to look down upon people because of who they loved was and is still wrong. I would like to think society is now a more accepting society than back then but sometimes that is just not the case. Sure, society now is more accepting of interracial relationships and same-sex relationships, but let’s be honest, sometimes they still get the glares and stares as they walk down the street. I also don’t think that it’s a problem with making other people’s behavior and attitudes our business at all because (with the example given) what if the girlfriend is just too afraid to stand up for herself and needs someone to give her a little encouragement. Sure, we don’t know what the true problem is and why that person is talking like that to her but I feel that if I saw someone who was talking down or belittling someone so harshly that it was humiliating him/her, I would want to step in, especially just to make sure it does not go any further than verbal abuse. If they say they’re ok and to mind my own business, at least I tried. Individuals in verbal or even physical abusive relationships stay because sometimes they just don’t know what to do or don’t know where to go. I feel these two examples are in a way similar to each other because both examples need support from society to know that 1) it is wrong to judge each other on whom they love and whom they want to be with and 2) that one does not need to be humiliated and being talked to like that is unacceptable.
Gurjeet S
Deleteim agree with prima those are the fain focusing point those she brought it up these statement really get apply now these day societies. she is right about 1950s that was really bad how people were treating each other. she got really positive energy girlfriend issue because girls should never be humiliated in any reason. everybody should treat each other evenly and make there life cycle successful by doing good things and not treat any other human differently . everybody should helpful and useful to each other no matters will be raised ever.
Stephanie A.
ReplyDeleteNorms are an important piece of society in the extent that they can be used for good to uphold the ideals and values of people within society as a way to keep people safe and in line. For example, norms that are considered of high value are those with regards to the protection of children, the elderly, and animals. Which I believe to be norms that shouldn’t ever be changed because if it were to be changed people would take more advantage of children, seniors, and animals due to the fact that it would suddenly be considered acceptable by society as “new norms”.
I want to clarify that I am in no way am I stating that I agree with the norms of the 1950’s because I do not. In fact I’d go as far as to say that I feel that a major problem of that era was essentially what I like to call “misguided norms”. Back then people were extremely racist and homophobic and it was part of their mental context within society. Caucasians were unable to speak with African Americans because if they did then they were considered by their neighborhood friends and other members of their community as very bad people, and often times those people would be prosecuted by his or her own community member because of their relationship choices.
Often time’s people would speak behind another community member’s back. There is a slight difference between the movie and the example that you gave about the berating girlfriend because the movie involves the topic of race, which in many cases is a very sensitive topic for most. Also on the other side of the coin is the verbally abusive girlfriend. One is a white woman talking to a black friend only as a friend and the other is a girlfriend being verbally abusive. Both are bad but its different type of situation. People should be able to talk to anyone without being judged.
Hi Stephanie, this is Duy M.
DeleteI agree with you the issue in the movie is way more sensitive than the example of berating girlfriend the professor gave. However, I think social norms against interracial relationship and same sex relationship were wrong and needed to be readdressed and it did. In case of berating/verbal abusive girlfriend, I believe that it is the community job (social norms) to realize that it should be prevented at any level. We have to consider the basic right of a person disregarding race, gender and etc. social norms in the 50s failed to recognize a person’s value. I strongly believe norms against berating /verbal abusive should be upheld tight. Every relationship has its own characteristic, but it does not means that a girlfriend/boyfriend/loved one deserves to be abuse physically or mentally. In many case of berating girlfriends, the abused person might try to cover for their abuser because they think that it is their faults that they are abused. Either way, it is indeed none of my business or any person’s business to stick my nose in this business. But from my point of view, from outside looking in, I can see very clearly that berating girlfriends are serious issue. It violates the duty to respect people at fundamental level. In order to assess public issues morally, we must first exam it from many angles using reasons. We must always take into consideration of a person fundamental value and respect in all matters, before we decide to judge, to appeal for or against a particular norm.
Vivian Q.
ReplyDeleteNowadays, thanks to education overcoming much of the social issues present in the 1950s, people have become more accepting of social occurrences such as interracial relationships and same-sex relationships, among other things. As was seen in the movie, these issues were of primary concern among the community as little as 60 years ago, but things have drastically changed since then. While I am aware that in other parts of the country (even in some more remote areas of California) people will still gawk at, avoid and maybe even openly express their dissatisfaction upon seeing an interracial couple or a same-sex couple, at least here in the Bay Area such reactions are no longer prevalent. We have begun to understand that there is nothing wrong with two “different” people being together; regardless of the color of our skin or our sexual orientation, we are all human beings and therefore capable of falling in love and desiring to be with our loved one.
Back in 1950, this train of thought was not accepted by the majority. Racism and homophobia were the norm back in that time, and of course these norms are wrong. As I mentioned before, we are all human beings, and as such we all possess dignity and reason and deserve to be respected by others. However, since these two social issues were widely accepted during the era, people would use social enforcement to look down upon people who went against the norm, such as Cathy and Raymond. As human beings, we are innately social animals; we thrive on being accepted within our communities, and being ignored or rejected by others is absolutely detrimental to our self-esteem, how we view/feel about ourselves, in extreme cases even our health. Therefore, social enforcement is perhaps the most powerful way of forcing others to conform to a social norm. It obviously worked with Raymond and Cathy: while Cathy first tried to break her ties with Raymond, when she decided she wished to continue to relate with him, he had already decided to move to another city to escape the social pressure.
Seeing someone ferociously berating and humiliating their girlfriend in public and socially enforcing our disapproval of such behavior is very different from the social enforcement of racism and homophobia. When in a public space, it is inevitable to react to someone who in our opinion is not “acting right.” Issues such as racism and homophobia are wrong in and of themselves and should not be enforced by a society. However, berating and humiliating someone is wrong because it is violating the dignity of another human being, therefore rejecting such behavior is correct and social enforcement in this case (speaking up against the partner doing the berating, expressing anger at the aggressor) is acceptable. When a person is going against the respect we should always have for other persons, is can almost be considered our duty to disapprove and stop such behavior, in the defense of a person’s dignity.
Cynthia Ruiz
ReplyDeleteI think social norms are important, for example we are all in college because its it generally what a young adult should be doing. In the movie Far From Heaven the social norms were against same sex and interracial relationships. The big difference between these norms are that in the 1950’s social norms were hurting people. Its not only that people in interracial relationship were getting ugly looks but these people could easily be hurt because of it. The same goes for same sex relationships. The good social norms that we should follow help human flourishing and protect people. If someone is abusively yelling at their girlfriend then its a good thing that they would get nasty looks or that someone would interfere so hopefully it wont happen again or escalate.
Laws tell us what we can and can't do. Social norms tell us what people think we should and should do. There are many situations where there are no laws against thing but that doesn't mean you should still do them. For example there is no law against people getting married for the wrong reasons, be it money, pregnancy, or loneliness. But still most people believe that marrying someone just because they have money is wrong and you should only marry someone if you really love them. But if you found a person in this situation, marrying for money, I don't think that you have the right to judge or discriminate against them. In this situation I would sincerely tell the person that you should marry for love because it would lead to their happiness, and if they still disagreed I would not hold it against them and especially not cause them pain.
In the film Raymond daughter was hurt, and Cathy was socially shunned because of the possibility of an interracial relationship and I believe this was wrong. Frank was also hurt because the social norms at this time did not lead him to happiness but instead in the pain of pretending to be something he wasn't.
Vivian Q.
DeleteHey there Cynthia,
I agree with your view that admonishing a cruel act such as berating a person is a “good thing.” However, don’t you also think that this admonishment should in turn be done in a sensible way? In other words, wouldn’t berating the “berater” only induce a vicious cycle of disrespecting human dignity? Even if the cruel boyfriend/girlfriend berating their partner is obviously someone with no sense of respect for others, we mustn’t forget that above all else, they are also human beings, and therefore possess reason and dignity we must acknowledge. This is why our social enforcement of norms should be strict, yet mindful of people’s dignity.
I also agree with your point on refraining from judging others because their ideas and/or reasoning do not concord with our own. Try as we might and have nothing but good intentions, if a person is set in their ways and will not change their minds on things that we (as taught by our society) do not agree with – such as your example of a person marrying for money even if this will not bring them true happiness – we have no right to judge them and their decisions/actions. It all goes back to respecting another’s dignity and reason; judging someone because they do not agree with us can be seen as a manner of demeaning their reason and deeming them inferior to us. Even if we strongly dissent with another person’s thoughts, we cannot disrespect them for merely this fact.
Paola G
ReplyDeleteNorms were not just wrong in the 1950s. Social norms are not the same as they were back in the day. In the 1950s segregation and homophobia were norms. Segregation was bad because it didn’t allow everyone to live equally. If you were in an interracial relationship or even friendship like Raymond and Cathy it was extremely frowned upon. Although social norms back then were normal doesn’t mean they were the right thing to do. Social norms have improved they still aren’t right. I feel like at times they hold you back from being happy and promote judgment. For example, todays social norms are for men to wear shorts or pants but when he wears a skirt because it is part of his culture/religion people judge. They assume things about him because he wears a skirt. It’s not illegal for him to wear a skirt but because of the social norms it makes his life hard. In the example of the berating girlfriend social norms would be helpful in this situation because it would show that this kind of behavior is bad. But it is already in the common human knowledge that you should never hurt anyone.
People should be able to figure out what’s good or bad for themselves. Making someone else’s business ours doesn't help anyone.
Elizabeth L.
DeleteI agree with you Paola, the norms were so much worse back in the day! From our generation, it seems impossible for these norms to be completely okay with society. And your example about men in skirts is so true, we may not have people obviously passing homophobic or racial remarks but people still pass a whole lot of judgement with rude stares and gossips about those people who are just a little different. And you're right, I feel that these norms we have (even today's norms) hold us back and does not liberate us as human beings. I feel that it constrains us and does not allow us to think for ourselves. Of course some social norms are great especially the example of a berating girlfriend, but i feel that it's takes a kind and decent human being to step in and help the situation before it gets any worse.
Elizabeth L.
ReplyDeleteI think that the 1950’s norms presented in “Far from Heaven” was wrong. People totally judged others based on the color pigment on their skins and their sexual orientation. Even though at that time period it was just how it “is,” but people still have their own minds and know from right and wrong. I still don’t believe just because you were “raised” on that belief that you couldn’t see that three boys throwing a rock at an innocent girl is okay. I noticed people were all in Cathy’s business when all she was doing was spending time with a black man and it was truly none of their business. As for an unhealthy relationship where the girlfriend gets verbally abused, I probably would past a little judgment to the boyfriend at first but I would also come to the realization that I do not know their complete story and it is not my place to pass any judgment at all. However, if I was to saw a couple physically abusing each other, I think anyone would step in and try to prevent any harm.
Prima F.
DeleteI also said that norms in the 1950’s were wrong especially when they are judging people solely on the color of their skin or sexual orientation. I definitely agree with you on what you said about how that the individuals who passed judgment still had minds of their own and that because that’s the way they were raised was why they did what they did. We all have a mind of our own and know the difference from right and wrong. It’s unfortunate that in the movie it seemed that the only person that seemed to care about the little being hurt was Cathy. That little girl is still a person and should be treated with respect. I, on the hand, said that I would step in if I saw someone berating his or her girlfriend. But after reading what you wrote and I thought about it a little more, I would also probably pass judgment because I do not know they whole story. But if I did witness physical abuse then I would step in.
Charmaign H
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree that both the norms of the 1950s were wrong as well as the behavioral issues of the town. Specifically in the norms of the 1950s, it was clear and evident at the time racism was still very much, alive which affected decision making in all aspects. In the 1950s and even farther back regarding African Americans were not given rights, treated, or respected like the typical Caucasian Americans in that time. African Americans were known to have tough times even life threatening experiences. With that being said it was normal for Blacks to live the lives that they lived by working in the fields, being servants, and doing labor jobs. It was not often that a Black person was privileged enough to have a decent job and live normally with the occasional stares and threats. For instance, a black person would not be able to walk down the street and look a white person in the eye without being threatened, beaten, or imprisoned. All of these actions were considered norms in the 1950s because the racial hatred had not passed and made being a African American or any other ethnicity a difficult and dangerous time.
Based on any environment, it is always important to know of the things that happen in the town and how it affects the community. Although things like businesses, laws passed, and changes in the community should be of great importance, personal matters should remain personal regardless of the timeframe. The community makes everyone’s business their business, when individuals are open about what goes on behind closed doors and not keeping the information confidential. Common sense would say if you do not want your business to be town gossip, it is best to keep private matters private. The problem with not minding your own business and being nosy is it can be embarrassing, cause tension and earn a reputation of having loose lips. Being nosy can affect someone’s family and daily life with gossip, jealousy, and can cause someone to be revengeful based on the severity of the situation. I am a firm believer in thinking what is private should stay private to avoid conflicts with business and ruining one’s own reputation of themselves and family.
William D.C.
ReplyDeleteWell I would not say it was wrong, it was back when the norms of the people where still in the early stages. I mean take for example, the act of enslaving people. That was a normal thing not more than a couple decades ago (back in 1950), but now it is wrong or illegal. The way the customs back then looks dreadful to us, but, to them pretty normal. We are just in the stage where different ethnic groups can marry, but, gays and lesbians cannot, well in some states. See, we are selves are in the progress of a change of period when gay and lesbian can marry equally like the different ethnic groups may marry who they want. We humans adapt slowly.
The people’s individually behavior and attitude are not our problem, but, the likeminded group of people is the predicament. The group that refuses to change, that can get violent due to their strong beliefs.
Now I have mixed feeling about social enforcement of the norms, because there are two affect that would occur. One would lead to change and the other would stick to the past. Now another variable is if the change, ethical or unethical.
The movie’s example is about the association between two different races, the norm was against that sort of connecting between people, so I would say the enforcement of the norms is wrong (coming from the future). The berating example is only about treating people general a morally way. It does not specifically say anything about race, gender or sex. Yes, I saw the girl on girl action but, turn it into abuse. So I would say one is about the people you walk and talk with and the other is treatment of your significant other.
Pijitra S.
DeleteHi William,
I agree with your comment. The society back in that time is different from us. It is not wrong if we think that there were many things that are different from our society these days.
The question I have here is when you comment about social enforcement of the norms "another variable is if the change, ethical or unethical" so, how do we set the standard or rule to decide what is ethical or unethical. Remember the first assignment about force-fed. It was difficult to conclude what is ethic and what is not.
And we have the same idea about the situation in the movie and the situation on what the professor gave us.
Emsley Fraser
DeleteI do agree with you William, the attitudes and the social norms of the 1950's is of course a lot if not entirely different from our time, so the beliefs of colors associating with each other were looked down upon. But if we were to go back in that time-frame, it would still be interesting to ask why whites and blacks can't socialize with each other. As for the berating example, it is true that it is not distinguished by race, gender or sex, but it obviously isn't right to humiliate a person especially when they don't deserve it, and it doesn't really go any deeper than that. But as for blacks and whites associating with each other, it was believed to be wrong, but why? Because it was illegal? Then why was it illegal? Because they are inferior in intelligence or social behavior? Why is that automatically so? They are people just like whites, and the only thing that is different really, is just color. So that is obviously invalid. But my main point is that it is true that it wasn't considered wrong in the past, but since there are so many questions that consider why it's wrong, it can be easier to see that their social norms are wrong, whereas with the girl berating her girlfriend, doesn't really go that deep into questions, which shows that it is just morally wrong.
David L.
ReplyDeleteI think that the norms back in the 1950's were wrong. No one should be judged for who they because of their skin color or who they want to fall in love with. Even thought it was a time period where racism accord frequently, people would still have their mindset on what was right to do. I don't think it was right for the people to damage Raymond's house or even hurt his own daughter. Another problem was that people had the tendency to be in other people's business. Norms judge everyone on how they see someone else without asking or knowing a reason. Gossips were going around that Cathy was cheating on Frank with Raymond. As those gossips were going around, everyone in the town started to look and treat Cathy and Raymond differently. I don't believe it is right for anyone judge another person for what they saw unless it was a known fact that it was a wrong doing.
Paola G.
DeleteI agree with you. People should not be judged because of their skin color or because they fall in love with someone they are not "suppose to" fall in love with. I also didn't agree with the fact that they vandalized Raymond's house or hurt his daughter because they were "different" and how they actually did what made them happy.
Gossip should not be a social norm. By gossiping you are being judgmental and hurting others by what you are saying.
Regardless if something is wrong no one should interfere in other people's lives. I feel that as long as they aren't hurting anyone their business shouldn't be ours. Part of being human is the ability to use your own reason and therefore make your own decisions.
I also believe that following social norm takes away from making your own decision. We’re so busy trying to fit in and be “normal” that we think that it’s the only way for us to be happy, doing the same things everyone else does.
Nickie P.
DeleteI agree with you David. In the movie when someone hears a rumor, they began telling other people and that’s how people are being judged without knowing for what, because one person saw something and took it the wrong way. People should mind their own business and stop judging others. Just because of one rumor it can ruin many lives such as Raymond and his daughter and Cathy and her family. It’s totally ridiculous, rude, cruel, and mean.
Ricky La
DeleteI agree that the norms in 1950's were wrong and that they shouldn’t judge people base on their skin or love interest. I also agree that norms don’t consider what is happening and decided to butt in. I felt bad for Raymond daughter since she didn’t do anything wrong and she was so scared from the start but the dad wasn’t paying attention until it was too late. and everyone picked ok Raymond family because the norms think that he did wrong from the start, but overall I agree it wasn’t right for the norms to mistreat them and they don’t even know what was happening.
Gurjeet S
ReplyDeleteI think it was tottaly wrong what happened in 1950s. norm should not be the problem that people should be focusing on because its just off topic god made everybody human evenlly just with different color and cultures. norms in 1950s were wrong they never should have treated people differently with color skin. by god every person in this world is same as other because they contain two hands, two legs. one heart so why color people should get treated different and why different skin color should be the problem. people should think twice before they even think about making any comment about skin because every person in this world is same and nobody should get treated differently. what have to Raymond's daughter was really disturbing she was innocent and hurted her really bad emotionally and mentally. social norms should be removed from society and any body who try to raise them they should get fine because everybody should stay loving and caring to each other without even thinking about that skins and it should not be the issue. .regardless no body should never interfere in any bodys life b/c its just making your our life even more stressful.
Charmaign H
DeleteI agree with Gurjeet S it is wrong to be discriminated against based on someone’s race, religion, or sexuality. This belief of equalism comes from religious backgrounds or towns with little or no bigotry. The problem with bigotry repeating itself is how much of the world had been segregated for centuries, and those bad habits were handed down from generation to generation. Habits such as racism are very difficult to break based on the severe impact that goes along with the environtment and peers. For example, if children see their parents being discriminate toward African Americans with beatings, verbal abuse, of a strong sense of unfairness, the child is more prone to repeating the same behavior due to the fact that no one is correcting the behavior. When behavior like that is not corrected or explained why it is wrong, it will continue to be passed down and just as widespread as anything else. This is how things such as bigotry and other problems around the world continue to be problematic because no one is correcting it, or standing up and admitting to the mistakes and wrongdoings that have been passed down.
Idealistically, it would be much of a stress reliever to parents and families to not have to deal with the emotionally unstable norms that have been created. If there were any norms that should always be lived by is equality, positivity, and care. Those essentials should be norms to help alleviate crime rates and encourage teens to better decision making and learning that racism and discrimination at any time, should not be tolerated anywhere.
Nickie P.
ReplyDeleteI think that norms in the 1950’s were different and wrong. Even though slavery was over, a lot of the adults in the 1950’s grew up during slavery years and when it was over they grew up knowing not to interact with colored people socially or emotionally. Once an interaction happens between a white person and a colored person, such as Cathy and Raymond in “Far from Heaven”, where they were seen together around a small town and automatically everyone stopped talking to her and was judging her. Also, I think that those people were very judgmental toward gay men and lesbian women. That’s why a lot of people had a hard time coming out because they were afraid to be judged. People at that time were so judgmental and rude; they would all be in each other’s businesses and being really noisy and telling other people about other people’s lives. But it didn’t bother Cathy at all, she ignored it and didn’t care about what people thought at one point. But that’s the problem back then, everyone was too involved in every ones lives and making judgments, showing cruel intensions, and teaching the next generation to do as they did. That is really messed up. It shouldn’t be anybody’s business if they choose to go hang out side of their social lives and with other people whom they’ve never hung out with. I just think that’s it’s really no one’s business but your own.
It’s totally different from judging someone who was white hanging out with a colored person, to a man wanting to be with the same sex compared to an ordinary family man beating his wife. Something’s you just cant ignore such as a man hurting his wife but if someone wanted to be with the same sex or if a white person wanted to hand out with a colored person, they shouldn’t be judged and everyone should mind their business.
Social enforcements of norms are reasonable at time. I think so because at one point you are allowed to have a social life and you are allowed to do what ever you want. But to a point where there is a line in life you just shouldn’t cross.
Currently same sex marriage is become the born, but in the past same sex marriage in the 5os was deemed as immoral. Then again most of what’s peoples business it there business as long as it’s not harmful to others or themselves. Social enforcement is necessary in the development of a person’s character but in some cases they may not need to be applied. For example in the past it was taught that woman was to be home makers and the husband would maintain the income. For a while it worked in that era but soon the demand for more labor forced the norm to be broken. Norms are important but they are never permanent. They change depending on what is demanded or needed. When it comes to the movie in contrast to any current situations, a public humiliation is unnecessary, but people in the 50s were trying to develop culturally and socially, breaking down the walls of prodigious. One is more serious than the other, or actually to be specific more immoral.
ReplyDeleteCurrently same sex marriage has become the norm, but in the past same sex marriage in the 50s was deemed as immoral. The same went for interracial couples. During the move It eventually becomes the gossip of the town endangering those who. It is a bit abrasive and in hindsight unnecessary. Social enforcement is necessary in the development of a person’s character but in some cases they may not need to be applied. For example in the past it was taught that woman was to be home makers and the husband would maintain the income. For a while it worked in that era but soon the demand for more labor forced the norm to be broken. Norms are important but they are never permanent. They change depending on what is demanded or needed. When it comes to the movie in contrast to any current situations, getting in someone business is uncalled for. It shows how little respect people have for others privacy. One the other hand public humiliation is more serious than the other, or actually to be specific more immoral. The irony is that these reactions to theses to situations were reversed.
DeleteJulio A.
DeleteI agree with you norms are just temporary and they change as people become fed up with certain stuff or as we need to adapt to certain environments. Like now the gay community want to have same sex marriage so that they can get benefits from their spouse and to make it fair for them and to make them feel equal. I bet in the 1950’s if you would have told someone that in our generation people of the same sex would get married or that blacks and whites would use the same bathroom and eat at the same table they probably would have probably laughed at you or even tried to hurt you in a way but I think that people now days have finally starts to kind of adapt to these norms. The majority of people have accepted the fact that everyone is equal no matter what race they are or what beliefs or even what sexual orientation they are.
Pijitra S.
ReplyDeleteI think the norm in 1950s about interracial relationship and same sex relationship is wrong. People should not be judge because of that. However, at that time equality was hardly to find. The majority was racist and gay was unacceptable. I think that is why the majority had wrong attitude. It is not right that those who uphold the attitude impose those who don’t. Our society is no longer sympathizes because we accepted interracial and same sex relationship. Nowadays, we have more equality, access to media, science that help we understand more and accept those norm. For example, we have internet, social media, we watch news and we see gay couple and gay marriage on the news and we start to accept it. We have science that the scientists actually do the research about why people become gay and stuff. Then we start to understand it and accept it. As time goes on, norms can be changed. I think the problem are both: the norms were wrong and with making other people’s behavior and attitudes our business. I think this way because when a person do something that against the norm, of course we are going to talk about it or question it like why did he do that? and so on. In the movie it is clearly about interracial relationships and same sex relationship relationships. It was a major issue at that time. It seems it is bigger problem compare to your example. When I read your example then I questioned what did she do to her boyfriend and got berated. I mean I would feel bad if I witness the situation that a guy berating his girlfriend but I think im an outsider. I do not know the whole story. But in the movie, they did not to anything wrong and the society judge them.
Christy C.
DeleteI also agree with the fact that the norms in 1950s were wrong especially about same sex and interracial relationships each person is different and with that makes different decisions than others may think is “normal”. And also it is true our society has adapted to the many different people around us, though there is still some discrimination still things seem like they are improving. But many people still see it immoral to live life like that. Even it is none of our business if someone breaks out of the norm in a way that it hurts them in some way we should intervene not just watch and do nothing if there is really something wrong. It does not matter even if you are an outsider or do not know exactly everything that is going on, there also something wrong with not helping, just watching when someone is in need is not right and something has to be done.
Emsley Fraser
ReplyDeleteThe social norms of the 1950’s were definitely obviously wrong in its sense. Blacks and whites were segregated, interracial couples were looked down upon, and whites were judged if they were to associate with blacks. It nullified the opportunity for different races to communicate and socialize in a single setting. But there are also norms that we currently think are important to this day, Like having manners, respecting one another, or being loyal in a relationship for example. As for Raymond and Cathy, they risked breaking the social norms for having a great time together. But when the people of Hartford began to make it their business, it was getting harder and harder for them to keep in contact and socialize with each other, since back then this was considered wrong in the 1950’s. But sometimes norms can be reasonable. Like if there was a couple, and someone was cheating in the relationship and the other person doesn’t know, while it is true that it isn’t our business, I believe that the person should know they are being cheated on and figure out how they can handle it. Not telling them would make them continue to go in a false relationship, which of course wouldn’t be right. The difference if this example and the one from the movie is that in one people were concerned with difference of color integrating and in another is loyalty in a relationship, which are different norms that don’t correlate. So I believe that the norms in the 1950’s were definitely a huge problem and needed to be changed, especially since we are all human and denying someone that is faithful and nice but colored is wrong.
Sarbdeep S.
DeleteI agree with you on the fact that the social norms of the 1950s were beyond wrong! People should not be looked down upon because of their race/gender/sexual preference/etc. It definitely did kill the little chances there were for peace being made in the human race, like you are saying. I also agree with you on the fact that there are some societal norms we must follow today, but……those are for us to follow ourselves, we should not be enforcing those upon others. We are all individual people and therefore have different ethnicities/preferences/etc. so there are no norms that are universal. I believe there isn’t a single norm that applies to every single person on this planet. Therefore, you cannot enforce ANY norms on people. It is kind of like saying that you cannot treat all cancer with the same medication; every case is unique and demands different treatment(s). We are humans…therefore we are all different and unique; we are not factory produced products that have the same features. There definitely are norms, but every person has their own unique individual “norms.” Therefore, you can’t expect others to act according to your norms….you cannot give everybody your own prescribed medication (in a sense). I agree with you, the people of Hartford did make it unnecessarily hard for Cathy and Raymond to meet with each other….this is outright stupid. Sure its right to tell somebody if you see their spouse cheating on them…but how do you know they are actually cheating? Or is this just another bullshit norm that when we see somebody’s wife having lunch with another man, we automatically stick our nose in that and consider it cheating? Unless we you (not you specifically) have rock hard proof or have seen somebody actually cheating, then there is no use to create unnecessary drama in somebody else’s life by saying they've been cheating. Don’t judge anybody period. And, don’t say anything unless you have full proof and know 100000% that what you are saying is accurate….otherwise, we will just end up like the mindless idiots of Hartford in the 50s (as depicted by the movie).
Christy C.
ReplyDeleteAs shown by the film, norms in the 1950s were a big deal and some were oblivious to the harm they can cause to others. The ways people were supposed to act and behave were very restrictive to people of those times to be themselves without being criticized and overlooked in an unjustly manner. It was a time where slavery was over but African Americans were still looked down upon just like same sex relationships, everything back then had to be done in specific ways. Though in some aspects norms are important to uphold certain ideals and values of a society, the ones during the 1950s were obviously wrong. To judge one another because of what we feel and who we may talk to is very low. And in the film the town of Hartford many wanted to appear as if the were leading perfect lives especially the upper class white people, any out of the ordinary things happening and the nosy women of that town were on it spreading gossip. It is not hard to believe that it once was like that, having to hide what you felt or did because it wasn't “normal”, they all seemed too conservative. Norms are needed in some aspects to keep order but never to discriminate others, because they are different. Now the difference between the examples in the movie is that in the movie the norms were being used against Cathy because she wasn't acting the way a women in that time was supposed to because she was seen conversing with a black man and with her gay husband if people would have found out the would have been mocked by the whole town, so it was clearly wrong. But with the example of the berating girlfriend social enforcement of norms is reasonable because it is as a help. Sometimes someone needs to step in when something is truly not right and is causing harm not just to be nosy or gossip, that's the only way I see norms could work efficiently, because it is right to enforce one's honor.
Julio A.
ReplyDeleteI think that the norms in the 1950’s were wrong in the sense that people would get judged or harassed for talking to people of a different race. I don’t think that the way they in forced the norms back then were wrong as well like the way everyone was gossiping about Cathy and making her out to be some criminal when all in all she was a pretty decent human being. I also didn’t like the way they assaulted Raymond’s’ daughter when she had no control of what her father was doing or what he did so they had no right to hit this little girl. Even when the little black kid went into the pool when Cathy and her husband were in Miami all the white people got out as if that kid had just contaminated the pool with some skin eating disease or something. I think that our generation has recognized that everyone is human and it doesn’t matter what race we are or what sexual orientation you want to belong to we are still human no matter what. Even though we have accepted people as who they are but I think we still have a long ways to go before we fully accept people for who they are and stop prosecuting them for being different than what certain people believe they should be. I feel that sometimes we have to make others people business our own like in the example with the berating girlfriend if it grew and it got physical to the point where one person is hitting the other one or say if someone is getting berated just for being gay or for being of a difference race then that were I think we make that business our own but other than I can’t think of to many more examples where we have the right to step in.
I think Norms in the 1950's were dead wrong because it doesnt matter what race you are you should be able to live your life happy period. But minding your business to a certain point is ok. If a man was harassing his women you shouldnt automatically get in there altercation. Some people like to handle there business the way they choose. Now if it gets to be a domestic situation then you have no choice but to stoo that. You shouldnt be harrased because of the race of the person you are talking to that norm doesnt have any reason to it. I am a firm believer that he was wrong for cheating on his wife for a man. I didnt get that he had a beautifull wife who loved him and he gave it up for the same gender that shouldnt be a Norm. Who am i to judge some one but at thge same time its my opinion and it isnt good to judge some one or there same sex relationship but it isnt normal. The 1950's kind of made it bad for now because peoplee still have tthe same mind set and it effects people in this generation now. Byron T 164
DeleteByron Thomas- Emily Fraser, I agree with how you think the 1950's were wrong you had a very valid point. You also mentioned the fact that Cathy and Raymond Risk breaking the social NORM by having a good time i agreed with your whole philosophy about the movie we see eye to eye on these subjects. We both feel that relationships things should be found out on there own but the only time i feel that you should say something if ypou are a very close friend to the person then you have no choice but to tell them Emily you have some strong points and i agree
DeleteDavid Davis
DeleteBack in the 1950's things were all messed up in the mixed raced communities. The norms were based off of the surroundings and what everyone seen was essentially the right thing to do. Interracial couples were something that was so looked down upon that as soon as a black man was seen with a white women people immediately jumped to conclusions. I think that everyone in the community flipped out just because they "thought" they were dating. Frank and Cathy Whittaker are, as far as the outside world can tell, the perfect couple. This bothered me the whole time when watching the movie because in reality they were really the couple that no one wanted to be. Frank was the one who cared about what everyone thought about him, his alcohol addiction was due to all the stress he was dealing with cause by putting on a act. Him being gay didn't help his stress level at all. He neglected his whole family to be with a man and he did so undercover due to the norm that he had the "perfect" life. I think that people were just scared of change so they went about everything thinking about what everyone else would think, no one wanted a bad reputation.
Sarbdeep S.
ReplyDeleteThe major problem is definitely that the norms in the 1950s were beyond crazy, but partially also that people take too much interest in the lives of others. Back then, blacks and gays/lesbians were looked down on just because of who they were. It wasn’t even something they chose to be, it’s the way they were born…the way God and nature made them. So, how can you be mad at someone for being something they didn’t choose to be? They were treated almost as if they were murderers or thieves. Honestly, I think people back in the 50s (as depicted by the movie) would rather “go after” a black male/female or someone who is gay rather than a murderer (especially if the murderer was white….because he/she is “pure”-according to his skin color-so how could he/she be a murderer?). The norms were that anyone who is black, gay/lesbian, or even anyone who associated with these people are wrong for even considering them as anything more then sinners, let alone equal humans. So, basically whites took over the land of “colored people”(native Americans) and then made this crazy norm that colored people are all bad? So colored people are bad, but you still wanted their land? You wanted the land of “low class” people? Makes a lot of sense (sarcasm). Evidently, the norms were beyond stupid and outright stupid, to say the least. It’s almost like saying you hate trees because they have leaves growing from them (hello! They are trees, what do you expect them to have? Shoes growing off of them?). Aside from the norms being flat out stupid, the fact that people took more than necessary interest in other people’s lives is irksome as well. If someone is having a friendly lunch with somebody else in public, rats in society quickly want to just make it seem as if though they have committed such a huge sin. Take for example in the movie, Raymond and Cathy go out for lunch at the restaurant. As soon as they walk in, people start gazing at them like they are the worlds biggest sinners….almost looking at them like they are cheating on Cathy’s husband simply by going out to lunch together. The same thing happens in our society today. Honestly, if someone did want to cheat on their spouse, why would they go out together in public to have a meal? Sadly, the way our society likes to make other people’s problems and attitudes our business for no reason….live your life and let others live theirs. If you have enough time to bee sitting there and worrying about other people’s problems, then you obviously have too much time on your hands, and need to go out and find a hobby to keep you busy. People like to stick their nose in the business of others way too much. If you honestly care so much about others then go out, and help the homeless and others in need. There are many children who sleep without clothes and food at night, why don’t you go out and make those “problems” yours and help them? Sadly, nobody is willing to do this because there is no drama involved! People would rather have the satisfaction of seeing others fight or talk shit behind other peoples backs, rather than having the satisfaction of making somebody’s day much brighter and contributing to their future. If people spent a 70th of the time they waste poking around in other peoples business towards actually trying to feed those in need, the world would be so much better. If any norms are needed in society, then it needs to be that we should help those who are less fortunate than us. Honestly, I don’t think that social enforcement of norms is reasonable at all….because honestly, mostly all of our societies norms are extremely stupid. Our norms always associate with the way that other people live their lives and how quickly we can judge them. Let people live their own lives while you live yours, there is a reason God made us separate people with separate lives, thoughts, and brains. Like tupac said, “only God can judge me.” Worry about your own life, because you are not perfect….and let others do what they want with their own lives!
James Baldwin
ReplyDeleteThe Norm in the 1950s against interracial relationship and some regular relationship were really wrong. But the fact that people were noisy and made other people’s behavior and attitudes their own business is more wrong than the Norm itself. I believe people should mind their own business when it comes to aspects of letting people love what they love and just let them do what they please. For example, some people that get into other people business usually gossip and make people look bad. I would like to think society is now a more accepting society more back then but sometimes that is just not the cas.