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Please post your response by Friday, April 11, at midnight. Then respond to one of your colleagues by Sunday, April 13 at midnight.
Question
The main characters in this film are primarily suffering from the social enforcement of norms. What that means is that the majority in a society has certain behaviors and attitudes it considers important, and does its best to make sure that people uphold those attitudes and behaviors by imposing social costs on the people who don’t uphold them.
Think about all of the ways norms were enforced in the film (all of the things people did in response to Raymond and Cathy's attempts at friendship, and Frank's desire to love another man). There were some violent acts, but much of the behavior was (relatively) subtle and non-violent.
By and large, our society no longer sympathizes with the norms they were upholding in the film (norms against interracial relationships and same sex relationships), and so we're also unsympathetic with their social enforcement.
But what about norms that we do think are important? Say we witnessed someone berating* her girlfriend in a way that humiliated her. We probably wouldn't want that to be illegal, but we probably also want to discourage it. We would probably behave toward that couple (with the verbally abusive girlfriend) much like the people in Hartford behaved toward Raymond and Cathy.
So, is the problem just that the norms were wrong in the 1950s? Or is there a problem with making other people’s behavior and attitudes our business at all? If you think that the social enforcement of norms is sometimes reasonable, what do you think is the difference between the examples from the movie and the example I gave (with the berating girlfriend)?
*To berate is to criticize someone angrily.
What is a Good Answer?
A good answer will reflect carefully on the various aspects of each question, and will tie an understanding of those aspects into the overall answer. A good answer will also elaborate on reasons for your answers, and explain your thinking in detail. I would expect a good answer to take up at least 3/4 of a double-spaced page in the word processing program before you copy and paste it.
A good response to your colleague will drive the conversation forward in some way. You might raise a question for your colleague, based on what she said in her comment; you might use his comment as a jumping-off spot to think about an issue raised in more depth; you might challenge some assumptions or argue against the logic of her reasons. Naturally, you'll do all of this politely and respectfully. Responses that merely agree with the comment won't be counted toward your grade.
Angad S.
ReplyDeleteI think that the norms that were upheld in our society were wrong in the 1950’s. I also agree with the statement on the blog that said, “By and large, our society no longer sympathizes with the norms they were upholding in the film (norms against interracial relationships and same sex relationships.)” This movie took place in a small rural town called Hartford, Connecticut. It was clear that at the time the people of the town were not yet accepting or liberal to the ideas of homosexuality or interracial relationships or even friendships. Frank, who is one of the main characters in the film, was an executive at Magna Tech. He was a husband, successful businessman and father. He was married to Cathy who was a stay home mom. One social norm that was broken or problem that we encounter in the movie arose when Frank figured out that he was attracted to men. In our society in the 1950’s no one would have accepted him to be gay or homosexual. I think that if word got out to his employer back then he would not have been able to continue his position as executive at Magna Tech. Another social problem that arose in the film is interracial friendships or relationships. Cathy who was the wife of Frank was building a friendship with Raymond Deegan. Raymond was the son of Cathy and Franks old gardener that passed away; he was also an African American “Black” man. Cathy got news that Frank had homosexual tendencies and started to get closer to Raymond. She was seen at the art museum, and out on a ride with Raymond to his part of town or the ghetto. Both times she was seen out with Raymond they instantly became the talk of the town. People were appalled and some even outraged that Cathy would have the audacity to be friends let alone be seen out in public with a black man. They were not comfortable with the fact that she would be his friend and definitely wouldn’t have been comfortable to the fact that she was attracted to him. I think that was another flaw in our society in the 1950’s; we were not open to interracial relationships or racial equality. Another reference from the movie that showed how racially prejudice our society was back then is when Raymond’s daughter was chased into the alley and assaulted with rocks by the 3 white boys just because her dad had a friend that was a white woman. I do not think that social enforcement of norms is reasonable or right. I think that people should mind their own especially when it comes to topics like butting into other people’s relationship or inter relationships and homosexuality. I don’t think that it should change other peoples perceptions of who you are or your integrity. Our country and society have come a long way since the 1950’s and I am proud and blessed to live in a country that so open and liberal to different ideas and beliefs.
Veronica P.
DeleteIn response to Angad S.
You bring up a really true statement, that people were not yet used to interracial relationships during this time period. Looking at it now, we obviously think that society was mean to even react like this. For example when the man stopped and put Raymond on the spot right away when he grabbed Cathy. Everyone stopped and stared. We look at this and think wow that's ridiculous, but that was the norm back then. Also when the little African American boy ran to the pool. It was absolutely ridiculous for everyone to leave the pool. I mean he's a little boy what harm can he do? But I guess that's how it was, it was almost like a natural instinct. That was indeed a major flaw, like you said. However people didn't think that, they saw African Americans like we see murderers or pedofiles (that might me too extreme but you get my point). And that's not okay to see innocent people as such horrible human beings because they weren't.
Dave K.
ReplyDeleteWere the norms of the 50s wrong? Yes and no. If you look at it from our point of view in current times, yes they were wrong and would be reprehensible today. The reality is that these issues are still a huge problem in some parts of the US even today. Many parts of the south and mid west still can’t see through the color of one’s skin or the gender of the person they love. Ultimately the rights of all humans should be equal, period. No exceptions. In the context of the 1950s, these norms were not that far fetched though. The Civil Rights Act was still 10 or more years away from being signed and blacks could still be segregated at schools. This is not to say that they were fair or justified.
It is nearly impossible to enforce norms because “the norm” is subjective and relative to your own situation. For example, your norm in West Oakland will not be the same as if you are in Pacific Heights in the City. For Frank and Cathy, their norm was high society and appearance was everything to them. They were at the top of their socialite lives and the only way they could move was down the ladder. Although the movie didn’t address Frank’s relationship with the other man very much, the repercussions Cathy’s relationship with Raymond was felt throughout the family members. Their daughter’s ballet performance showed the impact of Cathy’s decision to become friends with Raymond and she was casted out.
It was interesting to see the reaction of Cathy when she was taken to the black restaurant in Raymond’s part of town. I feel this was a turning point in Cathy’s relationship with Raymond. She finally felt what Raymond had felt all his life, to be singled out of a crowd for the color of their skin.
I have a problem with the idea of enforcing social norms as they are so subjective. It is really none of our business. Unless someone is being physically abused or the behavior is targeted toward a child it is not our place to step in. That being said, if I am out with a friend and they step over the line I’ll be the first to call them on it but that applies more toward friends and not a random person on the street. I am not sure how berating your girlfriend compares to the prejudice and hate that we saw in the movie. One sounds like a personal issue between two people and the other is affecting entire populations of people. Am I way off base with assessment?
Carla P.
ReplyDeleteThe movie Far From Heaven, showed many perspectives in how people were in the 1950’s. In the 1950’s people didn't accept people for who they were, meaning there was a large amount of discrimination. Two of the characters in the movie were in a way against the social norms of the 1950’s, but were still in a way shy to show their true attractions. One of the characters, Cathy, tries to become friends with her gardener who was an African American male named Raymond. Once the people in town witnessed Cathy attempting a friendship with Raymond, they immediately started accusing her of wanting him instead of her husband Frank. Cathy immediately became the talk of the town and people were angry of the very fact that she would even consider being seen with Raymond because of his skin color. Another character, which is Cathy’s husband, Frank whom finds out that he is a gay man and tries to take therapy to get “rid” of his attractions. He wasn't able to withstand his attraction towards the male he was in relations with and immediately wants a divorce with Cathy. Cathy and Raymond become close because of Frank kept on neglecting her and the town starts to say that Cathy and Raymond have a relationship. At first Cathy’s closest friend was in denial and confronted Cathy about the idea of her being in a relationship with Raymond, but once she finds out that Cathy can possibly be falling or even have a small attraction towards him, she doesn't want hear it or speak to Cathy anymore. Cathy is left as an outcast in the film because of her decision to be friends with Raymond, so Cathy decides she has to fire him to get her life back to the way it was. At the time of her firing him, he grabs her arm so she can tell him exactly why they have to end the relationship and a white man yells for Raymond to let go of her arm. I see this as the white man was being racist because Raymond didn't see a bit threatening to her and he was talking in a gentle tone. This was the wrongful norms they had in the 1950’s and it wasn't him trying to help an innocent women. If there was a woman berating her girlfriend in the modern times today someone would tell her to stop because it isn't right for someone to get disrespected in such a way. Raymond wasn't at all disrespecting Cathy, he wasn't forcing her to stay, and he was just trying to get some clear answers. Overall this movie did give us the point of view of the social norms of the 1950’s, and how ignorant people once were.
I totally agree with you about your argument. I really think that in the 1950’s they lack of understanding interracial and same sex relationship between two people. People back then make up stories and point out to people that they should not have any connections to one another. They treat other people’s problem like theirs and get involve with it personally. Today, people have a better understanding of these kinds of relationships, as well as the realization of homosexuals as a feeling and not a usual disease that exist. But we also do experience other kind of social enforcement such as the berating girlfriend. We are no longer sympathize about attitudes and behaviors of two individual with different ethnicities but we are more concern to the actions of two people to one another. Society today respect the privacy of other people until we become irritant to issues like physical and verbal abuse and humiliation. We respect other people’s privacy but we also discourage abuse and humiliation of other people because you know to yourself that is violation of humanity. So whether we were in 1950’s and today people are still taking advantage of us. The only difference would be the good outcome of today’s social enforcement.
DeleteGerald M
Gerald M. I think you had some good points in your blog I agree with your perspective that people in the 1950's were some type of ignorant. I think that were closed minded compared to our society as a whole today. I think that our society has come a long way from the 1950's days of segregation and racism to today's equal and intertwined society. I also think that we have come along way in points of respecting other people sexual preference. I think that back in the 1950's it was totally unacceptable for Frank to be gay or attracted to men. I think that it was a hard thing to do for him in the movie when he told his wife Cathy that he was attracted to another man and could not stop himself from loving the other man no matter how hard he tried. I think that it took a lot of courage to turn his back on his wife and children for another man, especially in the 1950's because people were a lot less understanding to homosexuality. I think that even in today's society it would be hard to leave your wife and kids for another man but I think that today's society would be more comfortable with homosexual dating or couples than our society in the 1950's. I do not think that racism and hate have been absolutely abolished from our society today but i do think that they are at an all time low. As long as we keep educating our youth and instilling good values and morals that concentrate on love and not hate then I believe our society is going in a good direction.
DeleteAngad S.
Angad S.
Evelin P.
ReplyDeleteThe norms in the 1950’s were seen as right back in the day because no one back then had an open mind and if they did they will hide the way the thought in order to fit into what society put as norms. Back then it wasn’t seen a white and colored person living together and especially not of any one being gay, there wasn’t a lot of liberal minds that fought to change the norms although they were wrong people didn’t think they were so they would accept them as they were. In my opinion the problem back then and today is that we make other people’s business our business and we pay attention to what everyone is doing and criticizing as we see them. Everyone has their own way of life a way that they prefer to live it no one should interfere unless they are doing something against the law or morally wrong. The norms in the 1950’s were really wrong. Everyone wanted to uphold an impeccable image and didn’t want anything to taint the image they have mad of themselves so they would hide who they really were. The norms back then were so screwed up that being gay was seen as a sickness that could be cure with electro shock therapy, and colored people were seen as targets that should be segregated from everyone and anyone that interacted with them was criticized and humiliated. People need to be more open minded on how others want to live, if they are not hurting anyone else or breaking the law no one should get into their business. Social enforcement of norms is only reasonable when things might escalate to another level like if a person is berating the girlfriend someone should say something if it seems it might turn violent. Unless otherwise if it’s not for a good reason we should not get into anyone’s business especially if some norms are out of line and plane crazy.
Carla P.
DeleteI completely agree with you, back then the norms were wrong and people did view them as the correct norms. I do have a small question; remember the time the white man yelled at Raymond to take his hands off Cathy? Do you think that in a way the man was thinking that Raymond was disrespecting her by grabbing her arm? I feel as though the man could’ve possibly been trying to protect Cathy but then again I don’t. You’re saying if there was a situation where someone was berating his girlfriend someone should step in, so the white man who was yelled for Raymond to stop grabbing Cathy was he in the right to step into their business? I feel as though a lot of people do get into another person’s business when they aren’t even sure on what the actual story is. I guess if the argument starts to escalate to the point where it’s starting to become violent, that’s when you know for sure to step in right? I do think you make a great point and people do need to start looking at the more important details rather than image.
Maria I.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that the norms were wrong back in the 1950s. I believe they where different back in the days. Of course we wouldn’t have the same issues as they did in the film because of the progress our society has made so far. But also we haven’t made that much progress as we all hoped for. Back in the days interracial friendships were uncommon and unknown of and people would see it as strange and it was hard for people to open up about new ideas or new ways of thinking. Same goes with two same sex couples wrong and not accepted. It's been over 60years from when the film was made and our society is just starting to accept same sex relationships. I believe in some social norms society just needs to mind their business but others should be enforced It is no ones business who a person chooses to be friends with so society has no business trying to intervene But than again being part of society we cant just walk by and see a man berating his girlfriend and do nothing. In a way it contradicts what I said earlier about minding our business but now in days women or man are being verbally abused with no help from anyone. Kids get bullied and end up killing themselves because they are tired of the verbal and physical abuse. Theres times when social enforcing is necessary and thats when someone vulnerable and cant seem to help themselves. Personally I would not be able to turn the cheek if I see a child or kid or women being verbally abuse or physically. If social enforcement was use in things that matter maybe our society wouldn’t be as bad as we are. Instead of focusing on preventing same sex relationships we should focus on ending bullying. Its easy for society to focuses in things that are easier to deal with were we might not be putting ourselves in any type of risk.
David B
DeleteWhich would lead me to believe that's the reason why some of the elderly still have their habits from that time. values were much different then as opposed to now. A lot of the people who were born in the 50's were conditioned to believe that was the right way to do things. Those that are still around today would say something along the lines of "back in the day, we'd never do [X]" X being whatever behavior is socially acceptable today.
Though some people may have been progressive in the civil rights movements, the overall mentality at that time was to keep everything separate but equal. They believed that if the two races were kept apart (much like District 9) peace would just happen. Obviously it didn't, so society had to come up with more restrictive laws, and people fought back. It was just an endless cycle, until government stepped in and said "enough".
Sandra Gonzalez
ReplyDeleteI do believe that the norms were wrong in the 1950s. Obviously homosexuality was rare and even talked about back then. People often got ridiculed and found acceptance to be difficult. These relationships were viewed as immoral and even out of the norm. However, certain attitudes and norms have changed dramatically (not entirely) since the 1950's. I do believe that every society and culture has its own set of norms.
As a society we sometimes expect to behave randomly but to behave in certain ways in particular situations. In the movie, Kathy and Raymond's attempt to friendship was viewed as out of the norm because of their difference in color. Kathy was trying to avoid the gossip from society but was faced with the difficult of acceptance even from her best fiend who did not accept her relationship with Raymond just because he was not white.
I do believe however, that in certain situations social enforcement of norms is sometimes reasonable and sometimes not. For example, with berating girlfriend example, I believe that certain society norms are important in such a way, otherwise I believe that people would be running wild.
I also think that norms can be in a certain point in time accepted as appropriate but with time that norm may become inappropriate , and vice versa. As a society we need to determine how to treat other people with respect and follow the norm of "ethics" not the norm of viewing other people as unequal to our society because of the skin color or peoples sexual orentation.
Jaewoo K.
ReplyDeleteEvery generations and eras have their norms and common senses which are believed by most of the people living in that time period. Most of the time people believe that their norms must be respected by everyone and they also might think it is necessary to enforce the norms to someone who do not follow it. However, as time goes, norms and common senses change their value and sometimes even disappear. As we saw in the movie, norms about interracial relationship or same sex marriage were very strict for everyone so people who try to violate the value were assumed as common enemies. People were being very aggressive every time they see any scenes against the belief. Mostly people showed their hostility by non-violent way such as gossiping, but some of them chose violent method to show it as a group of children attacked Raymond’s little daughter. Let’s consider now days. We still do not have one united opinion against the issue, but we also don’t have such hostility as people did in the past. Yet we have our own norms and common senses for now. The concept is exactly same as the past, and majority of people think it to be right value for this world. So we will teach these norms to our children, the next generations. I believe that the social enforcement of norms is reasonable sometimes. Think about the examples in our topic. By the way, I want to remind everyone one of the most important points that we learned from Kant. He mentioned that we must recognize fundamental value of human beings, and it is indeed the core value of the norms for all times. I would say that the norms in 1950s were lack of this basic rule. In the past, there were separate classes between the races, or whites and colors. People were missing, or did not know about the fundamental value of humans unlike ourselves now. And therefore, the norms of 1950s lost their values as generations changed. On the other hand, for the example of berating girlfriend is a violation of the norm that was mentioned by Kant. One person is humiliating another person ignoring that person’s value as a human. I would say it is wrong in any time of human history and everyone else must discourage it. It is not a right value that we can pass down to our next generations.
Theron R.
ReplyDeletePeople should know inherently at this stage in our social evolution to mind their own business. Great teachers in our history have told us this time and time again, like Jesus of Nazareth over 2000 years ago and 500 years before that Gautama Buddha (just to name a couple) with their respective statements regarding gossiping, judgment and unrighteous dominion over others. Yet, for some reason we still gossip and backbite try to exert our own will over others. What the town's people in Far From Heaven did was wrong in my opinion, yet I know they were only responding to how they had been raised to view society. Where does this desire to try to control what others do and think come from? Is it herd mentality? If an action or behavior doesn’t harm anyone, then it is no one else’s concern save the parties directly involved, therefore social enforcement at that level is invalid. Of course we would want to enforce norms that protect people from harm, like murder or child abuse, but in cases like the one’s in the film where two people have formed a friendship or have decided to be romantic regardless of gender, we should have no valid objection. The problem lies in the fact that society is constantly changing at a pace with which traditional values do not always keep up. One hundred years ago in the US it was against the values of society for a woman to vote, yet now it is an honored policy that anyone should be allowed to express their democratic rights.
Jaewoo K.
DeleteHello, Theron.
Thanks for your great opinion. As you brought up, in the town from our movie, people did not respect other’s right, which was for the colored ones. They did not realize equal value or fundamental value of human beings, as Kant mentioned in our book. It was painful to see people hurting others, like Raymond and Cathy, who were trying to overcome society’s wrong norms. Even it was not violent sometimes, it eventually ruined someone’s reputation or social relationship with others around. You are right. People were acting so probably because they were raised in such social norms, but it seemed that they gave up thinking by themselves. They just followed what their previous generation said or decided, assuming it is the right value to follow or preserve. I believe that social norms must be judged by what Kant mentioned, again, fundamental value of all human beings. Norms in 1950s did not admit equal value or right of colored people; therefore they were wrong and disappeared later. However, norms that you said, for murder or child abuse, should last forever as long as our history continues. It must be absolute rule to protect human value from getting hurt or ignored. On the other hand, any social norm that tries not to recognize human value must be brought up and be judged.
Francisco A.
ReplyDeleteTo me, I believe that the social norms of the 1950s were wrong. There have several reasons I believe this to be true: First off, most people, mainly White people, back than believed in segregation, in which there was to be a separation of between those who were White and those of colored race (mainly Black people). Even though most people then were taught of this separation between races, not everyone back then believed in racial segregation, for there were those heavily against it (like the NAACP). If one looks at from the movie, “Far from Heaven”, standpoint, Cathy was opposed of segregation and believed in inter-racial relationships (whether they were to be of marriage, friendship, or work/job related). So, despite the fact that most people back then may have ignorant to the concept of racial integration, it is still no excuse for those social norms from the 1950s to be considered reasonable for the time period, as even today there are people who still believe in the idea of racial segregation than racial integration. Secondly, in terms of same sex marriage, people in the 1950s were more religious and traditional than today, and thus based much of their decisions off of these beliefs (whether they ranged from heterosexual marriages to who God was). Because of this, many people in the 1950s resented the idea of same sex marriages, but mainly on a religious and traditional standpoint. In today’s world, most people have become more secular and materialistic, so people today have a different stance on same sex marriages than those of the 1950s, so people today have a more understanding of same sex marriages than back then. Lastly, people during the 1950s largely believed in the concept of White supremacy, at least the majority of White folks back then. Due to this belief, most (White) people then believed that those of the minority race (such as African, Latino, or Asian Americans) should not have the same rights as they did back then. As a result, people of a minority race were discriminately retreated unfairly, just like in the movie when Cathy and Raymond tried to become friends but could not because of the belief of White Supremacy. Even today, there are people who believe still believe in this concept, such as the KKK and the Neo-Nazis, and thus do what they can to uphold them wherever they want, regardless of what State or Federal law says. In conclusion, although one can say that people of the 1950s were more arrogant and thus narrow-minded than in today’s society, there are still people today who believe in the same ideals in the 1950s that stand today, such as anti-same sex marriages and racial separation. Although what people believed in back then may have been largely acceptable whereas today it wouldn’t, the fact still remains that there are those small groups who continue to stand and defend these same beliefs, and even though these people are in small numbers, they still exist, and will continue to exist so as long this country remains or until more than 90% of Americans willingly choose to officially deny the social norms of the 1950s in today’s modern world and for a long time afterwards.
I think the social codes of the 50s were normal for that time, although I do not think that they were fair or just. There is no doubt that if considered today, though there are still issues concerning same-sex marriage, that those norms that were upheld in the 50s were wrong. However it is still important to consider that era as a time of slow change and realize societal standards were drastically different than they are now. Making other people’s behavior and attitudes our business, I believe, has become a subtle social norm in response to the extremity of the situation we witness. On the other hand, I believe that this implicit norm is subjective from person to person. As children, we are taught to mind our own business, which is natural; as newcomers to the world, we need guidance and structure from our parents which is generally given as examples of right and wrong (i.e.: Don’t eavesdrop on their conversation, that is wrong, mind your own business). It isn’t until we grow up and personally interpret the world ourselves do we see that some things are wrong and that some situations need intervention. One may not impose on a humiliating situation, but step in when violence is being committed; while the opposite may go for a different person. I do think that the enforcement of social norms is reasonable, but that it mainly depends on the type and severity of the situation. I think it’s fair not to intervene in an argument between two people who I don’t happen to know because I’m not aware of their situation. Still, I think it’s just as fair to intervene in a situation where violence is involved.
ReplyDeleteSavanah F.
Jessica F.
DeleteI agree with you that the norms of the 50’s were unfair and unjust. Most people were not treated equally during those years. I also agree with you that even today there are people who do not accept same sex marriage or even marriage of different races. And yes societal standards at that time were very different and maybe that is the reason that there were so many problems. I also agree with you that as children we are told to mind our own business but as we grow up we kind of open our eyes more and are more involved in other people’s lives. And it is true as adult we step in when we feel that something is not going the way it should or that someone is acting in a way that is unfair. I agree with you I think most people will not step into a situation if someone is being yelled at but someone is more likely to step in if they see someone being physically hurt. I agree with you that we should not intervene in a situation of 2 people arguing that we do not know because we do not know both sides to the story.
Maria I.
DeleteI do agree with you in how social norms were different back in the 1950's. Also in how society does evolve. Although same sex relations is still an issue today. I do believe we should mind our business in certain issues. Example same sex relationships is something I think people should just mind their own business. Who is anyone to tell another person who they can have a relationship with and who they can't. I understand some people may not agree with same sex relations and we all have the right to our own opinion but also some we should respect others choices and opinions also. I also believe there are situations were we just can't see something unjust happening and turn the other cheek Like the example about berating girlfriend I do understand what you said about sometimes we don't know why they might be arguing about and it would be best if we just mind our business but I also believe we shouldn’t turn the other cheek Sometimes we get too use to turning thee other cheek that we forget that we still have a responsibility as a society to help others in need even though they might not ask for the help directly. Like with the whole thing about bullying and people being racist if society would stand up more for good causes maybe we wouldn't have so many issues about social enforcement.
Letonya D.
ReplyDeleteIn the film, Far from Heaven the main characters Raymond, his daughter Cathy and Frank, all suffered from the social enforcement of norms. Cathy and Raymond were involved in an interracial relationship, while Frank had the burning desire to love a man. The characters displayed ideals that starkly differed from the social norms of the 1950’s. If you witnessed a man berating his girlfriend in a humiliating way, the perception that many people would have is that the aggressor is verbally or physically abusive. This would remain true during the 1950’s perspective and the current perspective society has today.
The problem with social norms is that they are often wrong. Norms are generally based on an assumption and rarely does society spend time to accurately fact find in specific situations. Social norms primarily exist because people seek to be involved in other people’s personal business without the intent to assist. Society should strive to allow individuals to live by their own personal standards and beliefs rather than forcing beliefs on people. During the 1950’s, a social norm allowed races to segregate themselves because of an idea that one group is superior to the other.
I do think that some social enforce norms are reasonable, but only if they do not induce any emotional or physical harm to others. In the film, the characters Raymond and Cathy were in an interracial relationship. At that time, society would not allow Raymond and Cathy to date or even be friends. This example displays how much people can be manipulated by social norms. I believe that an interracial relationship and a person berating their girlfriend are the same on its face. Society would not spend the time or effort to accurately identify the difference. The difference in the situations would have to be analyzed in detail to properly distinguish differences. I do not believe there is actually a difference.
David B
DeleteI agree that social norms are based on assumption, but sometimes even social norms are written into law by governments even. These are meant to ensure that the general population acts accordingly to maintain some sort of social order (like our court and legal systems), and others go to the extreme of killing their own citizens that don't follow the rules that are set.
Some regimes go through great trouble to create "morality police" to enforce social norms and essentially seek and destroy the aberrant elements in a population. They fear that once an idea takes root, it will rise up and influence others to challenge these social norms.
Whether it be by direct law, or indirect action by a group or individual, social norms often play a pivotal role on how the group as a whole will function, whether to be tolerant or ignorant truly depends on how systems are shaped and implemented. Raymond, Cathy, and Frank all had their challenges in 1950's Connecticut, and each had a different reaction to the pressures of society.
Antwan J.
DeleteI totally agree with you Latonya. The society that came up during the 50's really didn't understand or didn't want to believe in interracial relationships and homosexuality. I think people should mine there own business sometimes, because if your not going to do something to better the situation , you should then just keep your self out of it. I'm very happy that society has change over the years, because their would be a lot of problems occurring in our society. There would be a major division in our society and culture. I think the movie showed good points when dealing with problems like social norms. I wish i had read your post before i posted mine.
Social enforcement of norms is only reasonable if the actions of the person that are going against the norms are putting others in danger or are harming someone, whether that be physically or emotionally. People have the right to act the way they please so long as no physical harm or emotional harm are being brought onto others. If someone wants to carry a gun in a holster on their waist for everyone to see. So long as the gun is unloaded and the magazine is carried on the opposite hip and everything is following open carrying laws then that person has the right to do so without feeling pressure by others to take it off. The difference between the movie example and the girlfriend being berated is that the social response to the action is much more energetic in the movie and back in the time period than it is here and now. Back in time in the society where the movie takes place the amount of pressure to conform to societal norms is much higher than it is now because of how much more accepting we are of different peoples. The ranking of how taboo the actions in the movie are is also much higher than berating a spouse. A white woman dating a black male in the time period the movie takes place is looked down upon more than someone being verbally abused today. People in the 50s would be much more inclined to take action against an interracial relationship than someone now would be to intervene seeing someone get verbally abused. Only in the case of being verbally abused do I think social intervention is reasonable. In the movie example social intervention was justified in neither case.
ReplyDeleteMiguel P.
Hello Miguel,
DeleteWow! I wish I would have read your response before I posted mines because it would have given me more things to write about. I agree with you completely. It would have definitely been a lot harder for Raymond and Cathy to get away with their interracial relationship back then versus someone trying to get away with berating their girlfriend today. People in today’s society are more open-minded and are more willing to put their foot down. Today, people are not afraid to camp out in front of a building for days to fight for what they want. However, I still believe that people in the 1950’s should mind their own business. Would you agree? You are also right that people should be able to say and do whatever they want as long as they are not putting others in danger or harming others. I still did not understand what you were trying to get at when you mentioned the gun. Can you go into more details on that, please?
-Siriphone R.
Siriphone R.
ReplyDeleteIn the 1950’s Raymond and Cathy struggled to be friends because of their interracial relationship. Frank also struggled to face the fact that he found pleasure being with men rather than women. Because of Raymond’s and Cathy’s friendship, they have made living in their town difficult. Also, Frank would have risked the chances of losing everything that he has built. I don’t think that the norms in the 1950’s were wrong. I just think that they were different. Overtime, a lot has changed and we constantly look back and wonder what many people were thinking. In the 1950’s it was not easy being African American nor was it easy to be a homosexual. Even until today, it is still hard for both homosexuals and African Americans. I must admit, growing up during that time must have not been easy. I think people should mind their own business. It seems to me that women in the 1950’s did not have much on their plate so they had plenty of time to gossip. Gossip went across the entire town within a day. People were constantly judging each other based on small amounts of information. Also, they lose friends left to right because of their desire to uphold their reputation instead of actually being a friend. As for the girl who is berating her girlfriend, it doesn’t matter what is going on. If they have personal issues then they should keep that within closed doors or else it will become everyone else’s business. There is no need to humiliate another person in public is such way
Lucia C.
DeleteI completely agree with you Siriphone, about the norms not being wrong in the 1950s, rather more different from today’s norms. I couldn’t have said it better than that. I also agree with you about the berating girlfriend and keeping their business behind closed doors. If people don’t want others to get involved then they should do whatever they are doing in their own time on their own place. Unless of course it its taking it to far, like putting a hand on someone else in an abusive matter. Other than that, I did have some comments on some of your writing. For example, when you said that it’s still hard for homosexuals and African Americans. I don’t really believe that’s true. We the people have grown much more knowledge through out the years that makes everything easier. What’s hard though is the people who discriminate toward them. There are still a few out there but very small numbers. It should never be hard to express what you are. I also have to disagree with you with the women back in the day not having enough on their plate. There was plenty in their plate, I believe more than men did. The reason being is because for men all they had to do is go to work and make money for the family. But who takes care of the money? The wife. She has to stay home and take care of everything else that the husband isn’t doing. She has to take care of the children and the husband. She has to make sure everything is ready for anything. Have the house nice and tidy and represent the household. Besides gossip now a days goes by much faster than back then because of all the technology. Plus it didn’t matter who saw Cathy with Raymond, because if it was anyone else, for example a white man, the gossip would of gone either way.
Michelle Padilla Lopez
ReplyDeleteI believe that the social enforcement of norms is wrong. In the movie, Far From Heaven, it shows how Cathy had an interracial friendship with Raymond as well as a friendship with Sybil. It also shows how Frank had a homosexuality relationship with the other men. I think the problem of norms were wrong in the 50's, but I also believe that society has a problem minding their own business. In the 50's, the norms were to have segregation and be racist. However, not all White people in this case believed all that. For example, Cathy opposed segregation and obviously had friendships with Raymond and Sybil, which they were Black. However, until this day, there are some people that still believe in segregation and they do not support homosexuality. Some people still need to mind their own business but they don't know how because they are still in awe that society can see past homosexuality and racial issues.
Social enforcement norms is sometimes reasonable if it doesn't include harming in any kind of way. For example, with Cathy's and Raymond friendship, that lady that made those awful comments about them, should've minded her own business and should've not said a word. She only said something because she thought it was wrong to have an interracial friendship. Same with Frank, in the 50's, society didn't see that as a norm, so they would've opposed it; however, they could have minded their own business. Individuals cannot control what they feel. Even if they tried, it wouldn't work. The example of berating their girlfriend in a way that humiliates her is wrong as well, even if both take it as a joke. If someone witnessed that happening, they'd probably ask why is she even with her partner. You want respect. Now a days, some people will respect interracial friendships or relationships, and they also accept homosexuality.
Janet S.
ReplyDeleteThe norms in the 1950s were clearly very different from the norms seen today. For that time period and everything going on in society during that time, when the movie took place, behaving the way they did toward interracial relationships and same sex relationships was normal and everyone reacted the same way. I do think though, that people should mind their own business but that is something that people tend to have difficulty with because most people are concerned with their image and how others see them. People have always had a tendency to judge people they come across regardless, just how Cathy and Raymond where treated when seen together by both Whites and Blacks. Their behavior is somewhat understandable because back in the 1950s it was rare to hear about same sex couples and even more interracial relationship, so to them it was seen as something wrong and unacceptable but when one looks at today’s society those relationships are significantly more acceptable. These norm are more acceptable today but there are still people who do not accept interracial or same sex couples but ultimately it should not matter to them what other people do because that is their lives and it does not affect anyone else or at least is should not.People choose and should be allowed to freely choose who they befriend or who they choose to be with, no one should be able to say what is wrong or right about it. Though, sometimes social enforcement is reasonable because if you someone berating their girlfriend you would probably not want to get involved because it is not your place, but that could easily escalate to something physical unlike in the movie the norms enforced where not harming anyone in anyway.
There is definitely a problem of social norms in the 1950’s society then was not fully liberated or open-minded to an interracial relationship and for homosexual relationship. People do not have idea of change between relationship of two individual with different ethnicities and sexual preference. A part of the movie where Frank went to a Psychiatric to go under some treatment to overcome homosexuality. During the 1950’s they treat homosexuality like any other diseases. There were studies that was done to promote a change to someone else’s sexual orientation through religious efforts and reparative treatment or conversion therapy. Scientifically, the evidences of the results of these treatments did not work. People in 1950’s lack of understanding interracial relationship, same sex relationship, and homosexuality. Because people have lack of understanding these attitudes and behaviors we have today they speculate and assume things are happening. Today, the society do not even sympathize the social enforcement we had in 1950’s. We are open minded to these kind of relationships and have clear understanding of it. The only difference we have today is the actions of people to one another. The example of the berating girlfriend can be tight in to different problems we have today. We can talk about any domestic abuse caused by other people to people, a person with anorexia nervosa, dying people, isolation, and so many things you can think of. Though, we do not have the right to get involved into these things, just because it is between two people and it is a personal matter, we also does not want to happen this to other people. In my opinion, we might have a different matter of approach to circumstances like the movie and the berating girlfriend but we have the same reason, and that reason is to help them. We might be on our own with our lives but we will always make our business with other people that is being abuse and humiliated.
ReplyDeleteGerald M
Madhuri D
ReplyDeleteIn movie “Far From Heaven” it showed different point of view of different people status, color and behavior. The movie is from 1950 and back then people had different way of taking things. Raymond one of the character of movie was a dark skinned and he was treated wrong. Later Cathy finds out that her husband is homosexual and in1950’s no one would accept that fact. Yet, Cathy was so calm and gave him another chance but it didn’t work and they ended getting divorce. At one point of movie Cathy and Raymond meet and people started talking about them because she was light skinned and he was dark the forced Raymond to move from that place. His daughter was stoned by the white kid which shows the discrimination back in 1950’s. I don’t blame people for being like that it’s our society who teaches us and we try to follow rules and law of society 1950’s was the generation when things were taken more seriously than now. When Cathy and Raymond were seen together many times people started to give them that look. It’s our society which makes us what we think about others because we belong to such place. Norms back then in 1950’s were wrong because people are supposed to understand each other. Due to Norms practice back then we still find those kinds of things in this generation well not much but sometimes and it could be serious at some point. Fortunately, now we live in this kind of generation were people are not treated as bad as back then. Now everyone can speak for their right but not like where Raymond who left because no one would understand him so he thought leaving would be a good choice for him and his daughter. In addition, to that Cathy and frank thought being separate with each other would be better. The movie gives good moral and I actually enjoyed watching it.
Kiran k
DeleteI totally agree with you that the norms back then were not right and people did not understand each other. The only thing that the white people knew that "it's their place" they could do whatever they wanted but in my opinion everyone has a right to be as free as they want to. A black person and a white person is same in my point of view because both of them are human and both should be given the same valued unlike in the movie where Raymond always got negative feed backs from people just because he was hanging out with a white woman.
Nayeli MC
ReplyDeleteI believe the problem is that there is a problem with making other people's behavior and attitudes at all because to this day, many people would still nod their heads in major disagreement in response to interracial relationships, for example. I am a person who does not care about what people think about me and my actions, but in return, I could care less about what other's are and do. In other words, I do care to follow "social norms," but after my father got jumped, I realized that if someone was in trouble, I should help. Because I wished someone would have helped my father, I would like to help someone how I wish someone would have helped my father. I think the difference between now and then is that people care far less now, and they suffer a lot from the bystander effect. For the movie and girlfriend scenario, I think that the moral duty would have to withstand criticism and maybe violence to fight for equal rights. I think that social enforcement of norms is sometimes reasonable, for example, being polite and not humiliating/judging others for who they love. I think the difference between the movie and berating the girlfriend example is that in the movie society was humiliating/judging the people involved in the interracial and same sex relationships while in the other scenario the boyfriend (which shows a supposedly affectionate and loving relationship with a significant other) was humiliating the girlfriend.
Madhuri D
DeleteI agree with your thought about the movie and I like how you gave example of your father getting jumped and the concept of helping people when they're in trouble. That's a good example of human being and showing your responsibility towards other human. Helping someone is great thing you could do for someone. comparing about movie and betraying girlfriend is a good way to show the difference about how we treat people.
Antwan J.
ReplyDeleteIn the movie "Far from Heaven", their were a lot of problems with the social norms during the 1950's. People who grow up during this time period thought that it was wrong to communicate or be friends with black's and homosexuals. That's why when Cathy's friends say her and Raymond socializing they were all in away disgusted that she was having a conversation with an black person. The blacks in Raymond neighborhood didn't agree with him being around a white women either. During the movie Cathy found out that her husband was a homosexual. She still gave him another chance even though he had cheated on her with a man. One of Cathy's friends sen her one day with Raymond, word got around town and everyone was talking about her and asking questions. Her husband frank found out from one his friends, he got so furious with her that he ended up slapping her across the face. Frank was more worried about his reputation and losing his job in a company he helped build. Raymond's daughter was also attacked, she was hit in the head with a big rock by some young boys, because her father liked a white women. I believe the norms in the 1950's were very different, because it was a time period were their wasn't a lot of interracial relationships especially between black's and whites, and back then being homosexual was just wrong. I'm very happy to be living in a society now that is more understanding and less cruel. I don't think anyone has the moral right to judge another person on how they choose to live there their life. During the movie Raymond eventually had to relocate so that he and his daughter could be safe from violence that was occurring in his home town. I really enjoyed watching the movie, it really shows how much society way of thinking has changed over the years. Still to this day i think people should keep some of their family issues to themselves, because people can be very cruel and hateful.
I agree with you that in the 1950’s there was few or no interracial relationships so people were not use to seeing that and many people do not like change. I also agree with you that in the 1950’s there no homosexuals so people did not except them into the society. I think that many people do not know how to act or think when they see different things like in those days’ interracial relationships and homosexual relationships. It is sometimes easier for people to follow the crowd than it is for them to stand up for what is right. Most people during the 1950’s were against interracial marriage and homosexuals because all of their friends and family members were against it and they didn’t want people to think as them as traders so they just went with the flow. I kind of agree with you that we live in a world that is less cruel than in the 1950’s but we still have a lot of cruelty in our world today.
DeleteJessica F.
Cassandra D
ReplyDeleteIt is a blatant fact, that the norms upheld in 1950s were wrong as it dealt mainly on racism and prejudice. The method of social enforcement, as shown in the film, of people making other people’s behavior and attitudes their own business is also wrong when it operates on those norms. In the film, when Raymond and Cathy are walking towards the restaurant, Mona immediately interprets this innocent scene as a malicious act and recounts it to the whole town as so. As a result, people on both parties have looked down on and, in a sense, ostracized them. A more explicit effect from this is when Sarah Deagan was attacked by the three white boys. However, this doesn’t mean that this form of social enforcement or the social enforcement of norms in general is unreasonable. Take the example of someone berating her girlfriend for instance, it is reasonable in this case for people to mind other people’s business. This is because, and the difference between this example and the film is that, you are witnessing an act of violence as opposed to an expected reaction indicative of those ‘50s norms. So, it is sometimes reasonable as it depends on the circumstance.
As a side comment, I thought I’d put this quote from James Baldwin’s “A Letter to My Nephew:” “[The] black man has functioned in the white man’s world as a fixed star, as an immovable pillar, and as he moves out of his place, heaven and earth are shaken to their foundations.”
Evelin P.
DeleteI agree and disagree with you yea the norms back in the 1950’s were wrong and many people interpreted things in their own way and go out to tell everyone things that really didn’t happen. Many of the problems is that we make others people our business and I think in the example of the guy berating his girlfriend people shouldn’t get unless things got out of control and it might look like it would turn out violent. Only if people see that the situation might turn out ugly that’s when people should say something. Putting social norms into account its only reasonable in some certain circumstances like you say.
Cassandra,
DeleteId have to disagree that just because a reaction is indicative to the norms of the 1950's means its ok or reasonable. For the african american community to be expected to take abuse from anyone and not react is wrong. The norms of the 50's were completely and utterly biased. However, I do agree that the problem lies in the general norms and people taking the affairs of others as their own. I also agree that their is a place where it is ok to become involved in the business someone else, when it is violent. Mona was wrong spreading rumors about Cathy and Raymond and she should have minded her own business. But I must admit that I feel it would be justified if someone had intervened in the kids attacking Sarah. That group of kids should not have attacked her. In the film, raymond tells cathy that it was minorities and not white people throwing rocks into his house every night, because of their relationship. An act of hatred or discrimination is just that, no matter the norms of the era or time period.
John S.
Hi Evelin,
DeleteI wanted to point out something in your reply. There is a saying that goes "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." By this, I wanted to say that, in the example of someone berating her girlfriend, it is reasonable to mind their business as our own because there is some level of concern. Why should we wait only until something gets real worse for us to act on it or to intervene. If that was your friend or your family member, would you wait until they were hurt really badly by their significant other or by someone to help them? So, we could say that there is a mentality behind making other people's business our own because we care.
I also wanted to refer back to Kant in his 4th example on page 42. The example describes a scenario in which a man sees others struggling with hardships and decides that he shouldn't care about other people's well-being but his own. To which Kant explains, "if such a way of thinking were to become a universal law of nature, the human race admittedly could very well subsist and doubtless could subsist [...] but, on the other hand, also cheats when he can, betrays the rights of man. [...] For a will resolved in this way would contradict itself, inasmuch as cases might often arise in which one would have need of the love and sympathy of others and in which he would deprive himself."
Cassandra D.
Hi John,
DeleteI'm sorry if I confused you, but I didn't mean to say that it was in any way reasonable or justified for interracial or same-sex couples to receive abuse or hatred from people back then because it was "an expected reaction indicative of the norms then". The phrase was used merely to explain that it is not reasonable for them to have minded other people's business just because that was the mentality then. And I also did address the fact that both parties, blacks and whites, displayed an act of discrimination towards their relationship because of the racism and prejudice that ran rampant in the '50s. I didn't mean to imply that any form of discrimination was justifiable because of the norms back then, in which we both agree were absolutely wrong.
Cassandra D.
David B.
ReplyDeleteI think, around the time this movie was set, the nation itself was coming off the heels the Second World War (1956, I believe, was the date during the new years scene) and what I think is the beginning of the civil rights movement. People were still acclimating to racial integration and the belief of “separate but equal” was still present and very strong. People believed certain things were taboo (i.e.: Raymond and Cathy’s friendship – a black man being friends with a white *married* woman and Frank’s desire to love another male.) It was socially acceptable for people to stay within their groups and fill their appropriate gender roles, and it became aberrant when people tried to break the status quo.
I believe that the attitudes that the people displayed in the 50’s were that of total and complete ignorance. While they wanted to be prim and proper (like their word choices, dress styles, and so on) they made other people’s choices and problems their own. They would choose to gossip about each other and take things out of context (like when Mona saw Raymond and Cathy together and then started gossiping about it around town) and seek to regulate behavior by creating a stigma about what they don’t know or what they fear. It’s as if personal choice and individuality doesn’t (or didn’t) exist. Everyone and everything had to be from the same cookie cutter image. Husband, wife, and children, your typical nuclear family. Any deviation from that and you considered “abnormal”.
In Raymond and Cathy’s world, this differs because the racial card was being played. We saw in the movie, after Mona spread the gossip; the whole town became hostile towards Cathy. Even Frank, her husband became hostile because he was more concerned about his image within the company that he works for.
The idea of homosexuality in the 50’s was believed to be a mental disorder and could be treated by psychiatry. Frank himself told Cathy that he had feeling that he was attracted to men once before in the past, and it made him feel “despicable”. He goes on to see the psychiatrists who suggests rather extreme forms of therapy (of which we know now is ineffective) to eliminate the feelings. There are certain groups of people who use religion as a method of control believing that homosexuality is a crime against god, and that they would be punished accordingly.
Surprisingly, after the fact that Cathy discovers Frank lip-locking with the other man in his office, it doesn’t really come up until pretty much the end of the film when she tells Eleanor about what was going on with them. It seemed like Eleanor supported Cathy and titled herself “her best friend in town” up until they were talking about the impending divorce and how she was hanging out with Raymond. Though, I must admit that the words Cathy uses gives her a different opinion about what happened. Eleanor even says she can’t tell someone how to live their lives, and essentially disconnects herself from Cathy at that point. She chose to uphold the social norm that white people and black people were to be separate from each other and not interact, much like how Frank held up the social norm that the ideal man should be straight, and any deviation from that makes a person less of a man should they choose to go that way and (Frank) has to do what he can to get back on the right track.
Whatever people choose to believe in is their own business, people have no right to interfere or impose their views on other people. They can choose to live how they want, after all, this country was built on the idea that you would be free from persecution no matter what you believed in, right?
No one needs to be subjected to any sort of humiliation for what they believe in, for whatever reason it may be. This was all the product of society trying to find its bearings and a new identity.
I believe the norms in 1950's are so different from now. People were very closed minded for example toward same sex relationships and toward people of color. In the movie " Far from Heaven" , the people from Hartford, Conneticut didn't accept people of color. When Cathy, which was one of the main characters attended an Art Museum she seen her gardener Raymond (who was a African American man) there as well with his daughter. She spoke with him and the people there began to look at her wrong. Cathy had problems with her husband Frank after she found him cheating in her with a man. She hosted a get together and later on that night she got into an argument with Frank and he ended up hitting Cathy. The next morning Cathy's best friend Eleanor came over and she noticed something was wrong with Cathy. Cathy insisted that everything was fine. When Eleanor left Cathy went to the side of her home and began to cry her heart out and Raymond happens to be there and he sees her crying so he asks if there is anything he can do. They end up going out for a drive to ease her mind and ended up going to a restaurant for colored people. When they arrived a white women by the name of Mona sees the two and Cathy became the talk of the town. All Raymond wanted to so was help Cathy. As soon as Frank found out about their friendship he told Cathy he didn't want to see her with him again. Cathy then let Raymond know about the situation and tells him they can no longer be seen together. When she turns to walk away Raymond grabs her by her arm a white man sees what happen and asks Raymond to let go if Cathy. He wasn't intending to hurt Cathy he just wanted her to explain why they couldn't continue their friendship. If I ever witness someone berating her girlfriend I would say something, I know it is none of my business but I couldn't let someone degrade another person in such a way. People discriminated then and until this day there are people who discriminate others because of the color of their skin. Personally, I believe it is wrong but then again I cannot control what other people think. We all have different norms. It is very sad that Sarah, Raymond's daughter was hurt by three white young boys because her father a African American man and Cathy a white women were friends. If I were to see something like this happening I would have to step in and say something because it is clearly wrong for someone to do this. Cathy was a friendly woman and she didn't treat others differently because of the color of their skin.
ReplyDelete-Lorena P.
Hi Lorena! I like what you wrote and I agree with mostly everything you said. I agree that people were close minded in the 50s and until this day, some people are. However, the norms were different from now. Some people still think that it's completely wrong to have same sex relationships as we have witnessed some states passing laws. And also, some people still disagree with interracial relationships and friendships. I believe it is wrong to think like this and you said it yourself, we cannot control the way people think. And again, I would have to agree that if someone was berating their girlfriend, even if it not my business and I believe it is wrong, I would step in.
Delete-Michelle Padilla Lopez
Hi Michelle! I am glad you agree with me that we cannot change te way people think. It is wrong that there are people in this world that treat others different because of the color of their skin. It is right , it may not be any of our buisness but if we were to see someone being hurt in any way and we can stop it then why not. We live in a world full of so much discrimination and there is nothing we can do but our change counts. It was wrong that Sarah, Franks daughter was hurt by those young boys because we father was friends with Cathy who was a white women. In a situation like this, I would have definitely stepped in and stopped it from happening. -Lorena P
DeleteJessica F.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the norms now a days are not as enforced as they were in the past. People seem to be more acceptable to interracial marriage and same sex relationships. But it is also true that not everyone these days accepts interracial marriage and same sex marriage which I personally think that we should accept all people as they are and not try to change them or look down on them. Yes these day we are in a way more modern, but these days we do still see people being racist towards others or not approving of same sex relationships. There are still violent racial acts committed these days but it is true that the number has decreased from past years. I do agree that our society has become unsympathetic with the norms that were seen in the video. People actually stand up for their rights more these days and people are also defending the rights of others as well. So maybe by people being more active against unjust acts has made such harsh norms disappear. I also think that if now a day people see someone treating another person unjustly they will disapprove of the action but they might also do nothing about it. And yes I agree we would probably behave like the people in the video we probably would not say anything to stop the unjust act but we would talk about it with others and try to discourage it. I also do think that the norms in the 1950’s were wrong and very unjust. I think that it is wrong to discriminate people based on their race or sexuality. I think that everyone deserves to be treated with respect and justice. I also think that most of the characters behaved the way that they did because that was how everyone else wanted them to behave. For example Frank, he wanted to please everyone else and keep a good image so people would be happy with him. Frank did what others wanted him to do and not what he wanted to do, he married a woman he never loved just so people could see him as the perfect man with the perfect life. I do think that we should care about how others act because in a way we all keep each other in check. For example if we didn’t care about how other people behaved then other people might do things to harm others because they knew no one would do anything to stop them. I think that some social norms are reasonable because they make us respect each other but I think the norms shown in the video were too harsh.
Janet S.
DeleteJessica, I agree with you that the norms presented in the movie were a bit harsh but you have to keep in mind that back then everything was different and that was before all of the Civil Rights movements. People did not mix with each other and did not accept the differences around them. Now people are more open-minded and try to understand others and their actions and decisions. With people just talking about the acts that they disapprove of to others, they will only keep enforcing the norms that they believe are right and they will continue to be involved in other people’s business. Clearly in the 50’s the women did not have much to do so gossip would spread quickly through towns and everyone would know everyone’s business. I also agree with you that Frank wanted to please everyone else and he would do everything that would make him uphold the image of being the perfect man with the perfect life. Don’t you think though, that some people act the way they do and make things more exaggerated because they might want attention? Yes, people would be more violent if others would not care so much about the actions of others but at the same time maybe there wouldn’t be as much violence if people in the first place didn’t care for what others did.
-Amiri M.
ReplyDeleteIn the movie Far From Heaven, the norms were very conservative and you had to be like everyone else. With that said being like everyone else meant that your views were supposed to be the same views society had. Thinking differently made you an outsider and it wasn't welcomed. Cathy and Frank a popular married couple were going through some issues. But not just any issues married couples go through, back then in the 1950's if your husband was suddenly coming out and desired another man it was a taboo. Something that you wouldn't dare to speak and share about. It was seemed to be a mental problem Frank had. That they worked on but in the end he couldn't fight his feelings and who he fell in love with. Which resulted in divorcing his wife and kids.
Cathy and Raymond had a great friendship but Raymond is Black. Segregation was still going on, and having any kind of relationship with Blacks were looked down on. Cathy was strongly against segregation and she created healthy friendships with her maid Sybil and Raymond her gardener. One noisy women saw Cathy and Raymond out together and began to spreads the word. Because of this Cathy had to end her relationship with Raymond. I think that the norms in the 1950's were wrong yet not all of it is gone. To this day they are people that still think in those old ways. Also being in someones business isn't right. It should't matter to you especially if it doesn't affect your life.
I feel that In certain circumstances people shouldn't feel afraid to show what they believe in, even if it may not go with society. As long it's something that has to do with you it should be fine to speak your mind. But if it has nothing to do with you, you should keep your thoughts to yourself. Trying to get into other peoples business is completely inappropriate. Especially spreading rumors or making them the talk of the town. The norm will always change as society grows. Therefore you should never segregate, or be racist towards anyone. Society shouldn't have that control over you.
Jacob T.
DeleteNOTE: Late, Given Extension
I absolutely agree with you and the fact that people within our society should definitely not police other individual’s behaviors or business, especially if it does not partake in any negative affect on us. If someone makes their behaviors and business your actually problem, then it becomes an issue. However most of the time people within our society are judged by appearances, abnormalities, disabilities, social status, and the list can go on and on. As I said within my own post I was even governed by my own society to look a certain a way to what seems to fit their own social norm, that’s just how we are wired. We are drawn to judge people if they look differently, behave differently, or how they live their lives differently. I believe the do this because it is a way to cope with the fear of something different, new, or unknown. I disagree with you when you said that people who are different are scared, which in some cases make sense, but expressing their unique or abnormal quality is a sign for strength, courage and bravery. Like I said in my own response and as you mentioned in yours that, misusing social enforcement can lead to gossip and rumors, but more so depression and suicidal thoughts from the person being gossiped about. The cause of social enforcements and following these social norms, I feel are the core reason of bullying. If a child is overweight, or red headed with freckles, just because they are different, they are deemed socially inacceptable because it doesn’t follow the social norms. We constantly judge people by their appearance without getting to know who they actually are and their own unique essence that makes our world so interesting and functional the way it is. You also touched bases on how norms are constantly changing and that was one of the biggest arguments I had within my response. Not too long ago we were lynching and enslaving people based on their pigment of their skin, in which was absolutely a social enforcement to oppress and inferiorize African Americans, because society deemed it acceptable, and why?, because they feared uniqueness, and differences. Who knows where our society is leaning towards next.
Angad Singh
DeleteAmiri M., I absolutely agree with your opinion. I also think that back in the 1950's it was socially wrong and looked down upon to disagree with the majority of people. I believe that people today are much more comfortable with not following the pack and being themselves. I also agree that there should always be an option to speak your mind if one is personally bothered or offended and I am also a strong believer of speaking my own mind. I am thankful that our country has evolved and learned to move away form those horrible constricting and prejudice social norms.
John S.
ReplyDeleteI think the problem lies in both, the norms of the 1950's were wrong and people got too involed in the business of others. I feel that the mindset of the vast majority of our countries population during that time came from a place of ignorance and closed mindedness. It seems like people were forced to act a way that was considered to be "proper" but the people who placed the most judgment were the same people with the biggest secrets. During those times, people were so quick to point their fingers at someone else only to deflect attentiom away from themselves. For example the scene where Frank and Cathy are arguing about her having spent time with Raymond. Frank expresses his strong feelings against equal rights amongst all races when he in fact had a secret that was considered "wrong".
Weve come a long way since those times amd publicly we are more accepting of interracial and homosexual relationships but we still have a long way to go. Its no ones business who a person chooses to love, love knows no race, religion, or gender. I have an uncle who went through the same dilemma Frank was faced with, he is in a gay relationship and is a great father to my younger cousins. In the film Cathy tells Frank that he is "all man" although he was going through his "problem". This term shows exactly the mindset towards homosexuality during the 50's, if youre gay youre less of a man. Being homosexual does not make a man or woman any less than who they are.
The thoughts and reactions towards interracial relationships during those times, in my opinion are outrageous. A person cannot help who they fall in love with, no matter their race. In terms of seeing someone berating their boyfriend or girlfriend, people have arguments and I feel its best that others keep themselves out of relationships they arent involved in. Unless of course it becomes violent, mentally or physically. However, I feel that Raymond was not berating Cathy, and the man across the street inly had a problem because he saw a black man touching a white woman. Which again is an example of people making the business of others, their own. When in fact, they were not having an argument at all; he didnt want her to walk out of his life because of the opinions of others. In the end, its unfortunate that they could not be together because they feared for their safety.
Despite the opinions and actions of the population in the 50's, interracial and homosexual relationships still happened. The hatred, discrimination and acts of violence are all for nothing and did nothing to change or help our society. Love is love no matter race or gender, and unless someones personal life or relationship is detrimental to their health or well being, people should mind themselves.
Giovanni Prado
ReplyDeleteI believe that there is a problem with both the norms in the 1950’s and making other people’s lives our business. The issue with the norms of the 1950’s is that they stereotyped too many people. Like the wife she was expected to do all the cleaning most of the cooking and then care for the husband when he gets home even if when he gets mad gets violent and slaps the wife. Then you have Raymond where he cannot be friends with a white person, I get that they did not have much rights back then but that was beyond crazy. With Frank wanting to be with another man, I do not see why he couldn’t, because when it comes down to it why would it affect anyone who wasn’t in the family he already started? Also with the kids even though it did not happen in the movie the kids weren’t allowed to ask too much about or for the dad without their mom telling them no right away, not even giving the dad a chance to retort. Finally there is a really big issue with making other people’s lives our business. You see if they have a better life then you, you will most likely resent them and look for ways to strike at them and make their lives bad. Also with the opposite side if you think less of them then you might take time out of your day and belittle them making their life even worse. Finally if they do things that have not been accepted as the norm then most likely people will point them out and get other people to think bad of this person when all they are trying to do is live their life how they want to, and why should they not be allowed to do such so?
Nhu T
DeleteI totally agree with you that the norms in the 1950’s is strongly wrong because it take away people right to live the live they want to. I think your point is very well analysis when you talk about how woman had to do all housework, be a good wife and mother at the same time and all their jobs are console and make their husband to be happy even they didn’t treat their wife very good. These people at that time see the norms as their standard to live their life without thinking another way or stand up for their rights. Moreover, the norms were totally incorrect when they discriminated the color people and didn’t respect them. White people treat color and gay people as diseases. Even with the kids, they didn’t have chance to be happy and they couldn’t live in peace at all. you did an excellent job on this point. I believe that making others people’s business as our business is not right, but there could be some reasonable situation we could consider to be concerned about others lives. Don’t you think so? For example, when Cathy got injure on her forehead because her husband hit her the other night, she was so depressed and cried a lot. However, her best friend came over and asked about her problem, she didn’t tell her best friend about it. I think the act of Cathy best friend can be a reasonable behavior to care about others business as our business. This is the carefulness and they can support others, but it’s not against others rights and it still didn’t against the norms at that time. I think if Cathy best friend share with her all sadness in life, she can help Cathy have better decision in life and also this can happen to all of us if we need some help.
Nhu T
ReplyDeleteI strongly believe that norms upheld in 1950s were extremely wrong in society, especially with interracial relationships and same sex relationships. I think people should respect others behavior and attitude instead of judging and making others behavior and attitudes as their business and imposing social costs on the people who don’t uphold them. When Mona saw Cathy and Raymond who were talking together and came to the bar. Although, they didn’t do anything wrong, people talk about them like they were extremely misbehavior and they ostracized them just because Raymond was a color person. They treated Cathy like she was doing something against their norms and they don’t accept her behaviors because she talked with an Africa American. Even Cathy husband, he thought that she did something that would make him feel embarrassed before hearing the truth from her. They judged Cathy and Raymond friendship because it wasn’t fit to the norms in their society. This was a time when people could force people to a bad circumstance and make them feel bad as hell to fit with society norms, which they still didn’t recognize whether it was right or wrong. They didn’t give color people a right to be treated as equal as others because they didn’t want to accept color people abilities. They allowed themselves to make others behavior as their business and talked about them as they know everything and they could have the right to judge others. For example, when Cathy met Raymond and talked to him about she wanted to end their friendship, she walked away and Raymond lightly pulled her arm because he had the opposite thought with Cathy. A man on the street yelled at him that he should take his hand out of Cathy and let her go. A man behavior was seems like he took Raymond behavior and attitude as his own business. He thought that Raymond could be dangerous for Cathy and harmful for her just because he was not a White man. This was obviously showed that people at that time always lived in the norms that society had and allowed themselves to consider others business as their own. It means that they didn’t respect anyone who was different from them. Same with sex relationships were treated unfair and it was like they could live in hell if they share their secrets with others even with family and friends. They felt shamed when they talked about it. All color and gay people scared because they were different and afraid to be changed because of the norms.
(continued)
Nhu Tran
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, I think that the social enforcement of norms is sometimes reasonable. The differences between the examples from the movie and the example of the berating girlfriend is that when Cathy best friend saw a violent behavior happened in Cathy relationship, she could take that as her business. It showed that she cared about her friend, not because she took that as her business to judge and disrespect Cathy. She sympathy for Cathy’s life and expressed her concern about it. This was totally different with the behavior of the berating girlfriend. Abusing a girlfriend is totally wrong and should be consider to be discouraged this behavior in public. Also, I don’t think racism would make a person less valuable than others. People in Hartford lived their life based on the society norms and didn’t give people another chance to be considered as equal rights and fairness. Likely with Sarah- Raymond’ daughter-, three little White boys threw stone to her just because she was a color girl and her father’s innocent behavior with Cathy. In the example of berating girlfriend, this was a good act for the society norms and could be accepted. But it doesn’t means that abusing someone is acceptable. At the end of the movie, we could obviously see that Raymond had to leave the town. Although Raymond and Cathy felt in love together and they had rights to love, they still couldn’t be happy and stayed with their loved one because they had to follow the norms. People couldn’t live the lives that they wanted and couldn’t love anyone and be happy. They had to live and behave to fit with society norms, which didn’t give them any support and happiness. They couldn’t stand for their wants and deserved for respectful from society.The majority in a society has certain behaviors and attitudes it considers important, and does its best to make sure that people uphold those attitudes and behaviors by imposing social costs on the people who don’t uphold them. however, at that time people didn’t give color people a right to be consider as human and equal as others White people. People couldn’t be happy even though they didn’t do anything wrong. Therefore, I think that the problem just that the norms were wrong in the 1950s.
Oluwatomi Aji
ReplyDeletePersonally I think the norms of the 1950's in the United States were and are wrong. However, I think that in some cases, that is acceptable to voice your opinion and make it your business of the behavior and attitudes of others. Similarly, I think that in some cases it is also permissible to enforce social norms of behavior. In the case of Raymond and Cathy the norms that separated them were not permissible on the premise that their actions were not detrimental to either them or anyone else for that matter. In this scenario it is no ones business what they are up to as long as the relationship is coherently mutual. And what I mean by this is that both parties agree to relate in their right minds exempt of duress. In Frank’s situation the same logic would hold as well if he was not married. Frank sought a relationship with another man which violated the social norms at the time. Although he kept it a secret and free from scrutiny and scorn; it would be permissible for some one to berate him on is actions a long as the reason is for cheating on his wife. By cheating in his wife he is breaking the bond of marriage and is hurting her at the same time. Therefore that should be frowned upon because his actions directly hurt another person. In the example of a man humiliating his girlfriend, verbal response is acceptable because he is abusing the girl mentally. So if I am walking down the street, and I see that happening i would be inclined to say something to deescalate the situation. Furthermore, the key difference with the dilemma of Raymond and Cathy is that no one was being hurt and that is what determines whether one should intervene or not. As for the enforcement of norms that govern behavior, I they should only take in to account behaviors that are detrimental to others if they are acted upon.
Hi Oluwatomi. I agree with you when you say the norms were wrong. But, it is very true that it is none of our buisness but there are times when we have to say something. Raymond seemed like such an intelligent man and Cathy such a wonderful woman. When Cathy found out about her husband cheating on her with another man she was there to help him get through it. She did her best to get the man she loved back. When he found out about her and Raymond going out together he immediately told her she could no longer see him or speak to him. He was not understanding. When Cathy went to her bestfriend Eleanor to let her know about The situation with her and her husband , Raymond was brought up into the conversation and told her what she felt about him and all Eleanor said was that she had "nothing to say" and that the rumors were right about her and Raymond. Eleanor as her bestfriend should have been the person to help her out since she was the only one to trust. She was wrong for putting her friend down.
DeleteYes it is true that everyone has the right to behave the way they want but I do believe that they should have some sort of respect toward others. Change starts with us. -Lorena P
ReplyDeleteSandra Gonzalez
I completely agree with you on the fact that the enforcement of norms that govern behavior should take into account behaviors that are detrimental to others if they are acted upon any harm.
But, don't you agree that there many ways in which people can influence our behavior in our life's. And sometimes the presence of what the society seems to accept is what sets the expectations in others as good norms and bad norms. There are many people in our childhood life and adulthood that shape and help us set our expectations to accept certain norms. Sometimes people cannot see beyond what is detrimental to others because what is detrimental to others could be someone not accepting that someone is homosexual. This could be detrimental to that person because they are causing that person mental harm by not accepting that person by who they are. For the other person who does not accept that person, this might not seem detrimental to them. My point is that it all depends on how you see the problem.
In my opinion, you mentioned that Raymond and Kathy's relationship was not detrimental to either one of them or anyone else and I also agree with you on this because they are causing no harm to anyone else but themselves because they knew that they couldn't be happy as friends because it was something that was out of the norm bak then.
But, when do we consider others peoples problem or situation our business? In the example that was given, if there was a man berating her girlfriend today there would even be people not saying anything at all. In the movie Raymond and Cathy when he was trying to get some answers from her, and the guy telling Raymond to let her go. I think that it was done because he didn't accept that Kathy was talking to a Black person. And in our society now, I still believe that people wouldn't say anything.
Lucia C.
ReplyDeleteThe norms in the 1950s were wrong from our point of view of today. We have grown older as a society and we have learned from the struggle of others. But if we were at that time period we would all probably follow the norms of the day. Same sex relationships and by-racial friendships would probably not be something we would have been supporting at the time. We wouldn’t of known any better than the people in the film. But since we are living in a different time period and we have seen the struggle, we as a society have grown much closer, where by-racial and same sex relationships are approved. Seeing what were the norms of the 1950s angered us because we know much more than what people in that period knew. Yes there are still some people that are still living up to those norms, but the reason being is because that’s the way they were raised. They can’t think for themselves, and know what’s right and what’s wrong, because what they think its right has been engraved in their minds so deeply that they don’t notice what they are doing. Well first of all they shouldn’t even be worrying about other people’s lives. Which bring me to my other point; it's none of anyone’s business what other people are doing. Everyone can think and speak for him or herself. There is no need in having someone talk behind your back about your personal stuff that’s going on in your life. Unless, of course something terrible is going on and they cant find the will to protect themselves. For example, like the berating girlfriend. She was verbally abusing her girlfriend and had no consideration of her feelings. That’s when it makes it ok to make other people business our problem, to take notice of the abuse and to take action. But if there is no abuse going on and nothing harmful is happening then we have no right to say what’s god and bad about anything.
Nayeli MC
DeleteI agree that most people from that era thought alike; thus followed the same norms. However, I cannot agree that same-sex and interracial relations are approved because that would mean they are all completely approved. It is possible that those who do not approve of same-sex and interracial relationships are because of how they were raised, or as Kant would say “the accidents of their births.” I think you are saying that the norms of today are to help only when a person is in danger. Then you would have to define danger. Like maybe verbal humiliation is not physical abuse, but it can lead to physical abuse or not. If it can lead to physical abuse, isn’t it harmful?
Oluwatomi Aji
DeleteI find your point about how people are products of their environment very interesting. However, do you think that is an adequate reason to state that they cant, "think for themselves"? As a child I cam understand why you would blindly follow the norms of the time but as one matures they should develop their own reason and think for themselves. Not everyone simply complies to the way they were raised, if it were the opposite, we would still be living in the same world as the movie right now. Furthermore I agree with your statement that one should only intervene in a harmful situation but i wouldn't specify it into a situation were one is not protecting themselves.
Marina Franco
DeleteLucia, I agree with you and your reasoning of how we would act if we were the ones in that generation. In your examples of why people thought it was bad needs to be a little more elaborate. Why do you think these people thought it was against the normal way of life? Do you think it was because the were concerned with the safety of their neighborhood or the safety of their lives and what they believed these different situations would bring to the lives of these people. No matter how private an individuals life should be treated, we will always have some kind of influence on each other especially when it is something that is expressed through ones actions. Therefore we can come to the conclusion of saying that people put themselves before other people when they feel like they are unwillingly put into a situation they did not want to be put into in the end it's all about how someone is being affected by what is going on around them.
Giovanni Prado
ReplyDeleteTo Nhu T
I agree with you that the norms were wrong, but I would like to play the devil’s advocate and challenge you to take a walk in someone else’s shoes. Now the norms had became the way they were because this was accepted by society as what should happen. So take it to our time now think what if you saw someone having a relationship with a horse? Most times you would not agree that this was okay and would most likely ridicule them or go on to say that you did not want your family to be affected by this in any way. This was how the people of the 1950 are thought about same sex relationships and people being friends with African Americans. On another point there are a lot of things now a days that have become norm’s that no one bats a eye over, like If you see someone who is Indian you will most likely think something ill about them and not feel safe around them. People who think themselves as patriotic might even go to extremes when they see them. Is that really a big difference between back then and now?
Kiran K.
ReplyDeleteThe example you gave was different from what we saw in the movie because in that movie Cathy and Raymond liked each other's company and it's the society who wasn't letting them be with each other and in your example it's the couple who aren't happy and the girlfriend who got insulted from his boyfriend. The norms were wrong in 1950s because everyone got into Cathy and Raymond's business. We should have some norms that has to do with being nice and equal to other not being racist because in the movie the social enforcement was the race difference not them each other. The social enforcement of norms are sometime reasonable but it depends on the situation for example if a dark skinned is bothering a light skinned girl, then it's a good norm they should be given to force white skinned people to be away from dark people.
Jacob T
ReplyDeleteREMINDER: Late, Given extension
Far before the 1950’s we as human beings unwillingly have the tendencies to avoid and essentially demise anything and everything that we deem eccentric or weird, that’s just the way our experiences within our society has shaped us. As we are constantly challenged to follow these unspoken laws, rules, or these so called, “social norms”, we have adequately adapted it into a way we think and make decisions; and as we continue to evolve these social norms and how they were enforced have completely changed. For example the discrimination and oppression of colored people dated back to the 1750’s, to how it is now, or the inhumane acts brought upon homosexuals dated far before the 1950’s to how it is in the 21st century. If you have haven’t noticed, things have completely change, for better or for worse. I believe we all feel the need to police or shape our society and in doing so we govern other people’s own personal lives, and the decisions they make or do not make, and we substantially are trying to build a world that you (whoever is enforcing the social norm) feel is “normal. Just as Cathy and Raymond’s friendship, immediately the members of their society assumed something more was going on just by a simple scene that took place in public, and with these assumptions comes gossip and rumors of course. Not only are we predisposed to follow these social norms, we has people simply fear anything different, and are indubitably afraid of uniqueness, abnormality, and individualism. Having my ears gauged since middle school I was always looked at as weird, constantly being judged with comments or stares, some nice and some rude. But just because someone from your society doesn’t like what you like, wear what you wear, or live the way you live, doesn’t make you anything less than a human being. We all have different ways of viewing the world and the way we express our own individual essence. My number one rule has always been to never judge a book by its cover but by the content inside, cause nobody knows you until they actually have the opportunity too. Although I do not agree with social enforcing due to the misuse that can lead to a person becoming depressed or suicidal, and since we have this natural ability to enforce social norms, we should use it too shape our youth. Teaching kids manners, to respect elders, and follow basic ethical guidelines we could shape our world into a better place. We tend to forget that the future of our world lies upon the hands of our youth. Also the example of the girlfriend being cruelly talked down on, one could gossip to another about how horrible that is, and essentially prevent verbal abuse, or someone from their society could stand up for the girlfriend, making the boyfriend think twice about his actions. It really comes down to the outcome one is trying to reach if social enforcement was to be legit. However I remain behind the idea of not being involved in governing ones behavior or attitudes because with all things in life, not everyone agrees with “normal” society you are trying to enforce.
Marina Franco
ReplyDeleteBack on the day there was a mandatory norm that was first put into example from the catholic religion of Jesus and Mary. The catholic religion was the main and sometime the only religion that was practiced at this time in the film. Both of the examples that were shown in the film concerned the private lives of these individuals. A berating girlfriend now a days is considered wrong because of the violence that is present. The difference in color and desires was shocking and against the written law. Knowing violence is wrong comes from or reason about respect and safety. Certain stereotypes were labeling homosexuals and African-Americans as dangerous to mess with which put people in fear of their secure safety zone of acting right and normal therefore making them disassociate with any of it. Society is always scared of change, new things that seem dangerous suddenly put all of us on edge and suddenly make it their business because they love within the society. The way that these different situations can effect a society due to the fact that these changes happen in consideration of being recognized by society, is determined by the extreme levels of danger it holds within itself. We can not tell someone what to DO but it is always our right to tell them how to ACT. These standards change with time, but at a given moment sometimes it is what is strongly believed and of course, followed. What these people believed is wrong to a modern society now because a modern society has dealt with many cases like this one that it is no longer strange. Instead we are dealing with new issues such as immigration which brings the fears of job losses and national identity. In conclusion, safety will always be the reason behind going against change.
Angad S.
ReplyDeleteI believe that social enforcement of norms can be both justified and sometimes inappropriate. I think that in most arguments there is a fine line between minding your own business and getting involved. I think that if I saw an argument between a couple; and the woman was berating her girlfriend I would mind my own business unless it got violent. I think that: as long as no one gets hurt and I don’t get personally bothered there would be no reason to intervene in the situation. I am also 28 years old and have grown up in the 90’s. Our country is much more understanding of homosexuality than it was in Hartford, Connecticut in the 1950’s. In the movie people of the town have many subtle ways of showing disapproval of the actions of the main actors. When the town saw Raymond and Cathy together at the museum they were all in awe. They were amazed that Cathy would have the audacity to do such a thing. When they were spotted together on a ride in Raymond’s part of town they sent Cathy’s best friend to come talk some sense into her and figure out what was going on. It was against societies norms that a black man and white woman could be friends let alone lovers. Society also looked down upon Frank’s homosexual behavior. Frank wanted to leave his wife and family and be in a relationship with another man. I think that in the 1950’s it would have been considered to be crossing social norms to do such a thing but in today’s society; it might be considered to be ok. What was not ok is cheating on his wife. I do not think that it was ok back then and I don’t think it is ok today. I think that society back then believed in utilitarianism. Societies basic beliefs and norms were centered for there belief of the greater good of the community and back then homosexuality and interracial couples or friends were not considered good or accepted by most members of the community or society of Hartford as a whole.